provisional during a scramble

[Papa Steve 55]

One of our last tournament's of the year is a three man scramble.  Played it today. We had a guy struggling off the Tee. After a pull hook that was less bad then the past 3, he said he thought he figured it out. I suggested he hit a provisional. Guys on an adjoining tee said it was not allowed, his provisional would become our teams 2nd shot. All three of them argued the same point. As we had one in the middle, we just let it go. After the round I asked the pro, who said you can hit a provisional whenever you want for the most part. Told one of the guys in the threesome, who said yeah, they knew, just wanted to screw up our team. Only redeeming value, we got third place $$$ and cancelled out their only skin.

 

......Dropped this in the wrong forum....my bad.....

Edited November 5, 2016 by Papa Steve 55

[Martyn W]

A scramble is not played iaw the Rules of Golf which is why it is important for the committee to be very specific on the Rules Sheet with any procedures such as where to place the ball etc. 

In your scenario, the player who hit a 'provisional' was not entitled to (unless the original may have been lost outside a WH or OB) which means his 'provisional' became HIS ball in play laying three. Had the team selected it, they would be playing their fourth shot.

[Big C]

As Martyn said above, there are no official rules that govern scrambles beyond what is itemized in the organizers rule sheet. And since it's impossible to cover every single possibility in one page, some of these "gray areas" have to come down to common sense. 

If the question were posed to me, I would say that with one ball already in the middle of the fairway, you can't make a common sense argument for hitting a provisional. Absent a requirement to use a certain number of each players drives, there is absolutely no scenario in which you would use that provisional ball. So an organizer would have been justified in penalizing your group. 

On the other hand, if every single player had driven the ball wayward and there was the possibility that none of the drives would be found, a provisional would have been reasonable. 

Alternatively, if you needed to use that players drive to satisfy a minimum drives rule, a provisional would make sense there also. 

Beyond those two scenarios, hitting a provision is akin to cheating, IMO.

[Golfingdad]

30 minutes ago, Big C said:

As Martyn said above, there are no official rules that govern scrambles beyond what is itemized in the organizers rule sheet. And since it's impossible to cover every single possibility in one page, some of these "gray areas" have to come down to common sense. 

If the question were posed to me, I would say that with one ball already in the middle of the fairway, you can't make a common sense argument for hitting a provisional. Absent a requirement to use a certain number of each players drives, there is absolutely no scenario in which you would use that provisional ball. So an organizer would have been justified in penalizing your group. 

On the other hand, if every single player had driven the ball wayward and there was the possibility that none of the drives would be found, a provisional would have been reasonable. 

Alternatively, if you needed to use that players drive to satisfy a minimum drives rule, a provisional would make sense there also. 

Beyond those two scenarios, hitting a provision is akin to cheating, IMO.

I disagree.  As long as the requirements for a provisional are met - as Martyn says, the ball is likely OB or lost outside of a hazard - then he's fine.  The determining factor for the legitimacy of the shot can't be its likelihood that it would be used.  Think about how many times you have played in scrambles with somebody who was an awful or beginning golfer.  The same logic would have to apply there too, right?  Every time you hit a shot that was clearly better or longer than anything they were capable of hitting, they'd have to skip their shot or get penalized?  Of course not. :)

[Rulesman]

All 3 players had made a stroke.

If you had chosen to play a provisional, you now had a choice about which stroke to use as the counting ball.

As soon as a provisional was hit, the errant shot that was lost is the counting ball. The other player(s) (Texas or Florida scramble) must now play provisionals from the tee. The team is now lying 3.

[Fourputt]

17 hours ago, Rulesman said:

All 3 players had made a stroke.

If you had chosen to play a provisional, you now had a choice about which stroke to use as the counting ball.

As soon as a provisional was hit, the errant shot that was lost is the counting ball. The other player(s) (Texas or Florida scramble) must now play provisionals from the tee. The team is now lying 3.

This.  The team now lies 3.  This is NOT the same as allowing an out of turn tap in to promote a better pace of play.  I've played in a lot of scrambles in the last 40 years, and I have never seen a provisional played unless ALL players on a side had hit shots that may be out of play.

[Rulesman]

I didn't make any reference to PoP or tap ins.

What are you on about?

[Fourputt]

On 11/9/2016 at 11:30 AM, Rulesman said:

I didn't make any reference to PoP or tap ins.

What are you on about?

In many scrambles, they put in a "rule" that if a player hits a putt close to the hole where it is a tap-in, he may go and putt it in rather than taking the time to mark, and do so even if there are still others on his team left to play the longer shot.  If that "rule" isn't active, then once the ball is holed on the tap-in the other players shouldn't get a chance play the previous stroke, since the ball has been holed, ending play there.  In my men's club spring scramble it is stated that if that tap-in in missed, then the stroke counts and anyone left to play the previous shot is out of luck, so we don't do it unless it is a sure thing.

[No Mulligans]

I've played in a handful of scrambles and they have all been company charitable events facilitated by a business.  The business I work for does one each year.  We "invite" our big partners and customers and vendors etc.  Everyone pays green fees of about $150 including myself and all employees of the business.  The green fees in excess of what the course charges us goes to a charity (Fresh Start Surgical Gifts in our case).

We have things like buy mulligans for $5 each, pay a long drive champ to take your tee shot, pay to tee off with an air compressor bazooka etc.  People drink and go a bit wild with their "score-keeping" and the "rules" at least I suspect they do.  Many are playing their only round of the year.  And on the flip side there is usually a foursome of ringers that comes in around 18 under and wins.

I know two things, my foursome has no chance of winning or being in the top ten.  Even though we are hitting golf balls with golf clubs (mostly) on a golf course, a scramble can hardly be considered golf or at least not golf played under the rules of golf.

In scrambles like this... Asking the long drive champ if you can try hitting a ball with his driver, fine.  Hitting extra balls, no big deal, just don't use them.  We're not playing under the rules so we are not breaking the rules.

 

[Fourputt]

6 hours ago, No Mulligans said:

I've played in a handful of scrambles and they have all been company charitable events facilitated by a business.  The business I work for does one each year.  We "invite" our big partners and customers and vendors etc.  Everyone pays green fees of about $150 including myself and all employees of the business.  The green fees in excess of what the course charges us goes to a charity (Fresh Start Surgical Gifts in our case).

We have things like buy mulligans for $5 each, pay a long drive champ to take your tee shot, pay to tee off with an air compressor bazooka etc.  People drink and go a bit wild with their "score-keeping" and the "rules" at least I suspect they do.  Many are playing their only round of the year.  And on the flip side there is usually a foursome of ringers that comes in around 18 under and wins.

I know two things, my foursome has no chance of winning or being in the top ten.  Even though we are hitting golf balls with golf clubs (mostly) on a golf course, a scramble can hardly be considered golf or at least not golf played under the rules of golf.

In scrambles like this... Asking the long drive champ if you can try hitting a ball with his driver, fine.  Hitting extra balls, no big deal, just don't use them.  We're not playing under the rules so we are not breaking the rules.

 

In your scrambles, maybe not.  The ones I most often play in are more structured than that.  You can just decide to do whatever you want just because the Rules of Golf don't recognize the format.  The tournament organizers may or may not have set some playing parameters.  If they have then they apply and it's not the free-for-all that so many posters here experience.  In the 2 scrambles I play annually in the men's club, the players are all experienced, the teams are set up by the tournament pairing software, and the rules are quite specific.