Paige Spiranac on Cyber Bullying

[14ledo81]

18 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

So if a college girl goes out to a bar and then gets raped we should just say, "Oh well, its expected to happen?" A few reports have the percentage of women raped in college at 20-25% over the entire college career.

The same logic is used. The woman was wearing too provocative of clothing. The woman should not have been out alone. "What do think is going to happen?," people will say. Society makes excuses for the men who rape women. Society makes excuses for bullies. 

What do you think propagates this in college? Maybe society turning a blind eye towards it or making excuses for.

 

First off, the bolded portion is an overly dramatized straw man.  No where did I mention the word rape in this thread.  And I certainly do not look at it like "oh well"....

I will respond anyway.  If stats show that 20%-25% of women get raped at some point during college, I "expect" it to happen 20%-25% of the time.  At this point, anything else would be burying my head in the sand.  This does not mean I condone it.  I think it is terrible.  I think one woman being raped is terrible, and I am all for doing whatever we can to lower these statistics however we can.  I would also educate my daughters about this statistic before they go to college so they can better prepare themselves for the type of people that are in this world.

[iacas]

22 minutes ago, carpediem4300 said:

This is it though, in a perfect world nobody should expect this, or to be raped, or mugged, or murdered,......but the world will never be perfect, as much as you and I wish it was, it never will be, it wont matter what education is put in place, laws, prison sentences, peeople will still bully, rape, mug, murder each other, and it will never change

So let's do nothing about it. Cool.

(I know deep down that's not what you're actually saying, but… that's certainly how it can come off.)

22 minutes ago, carpediem4300 said:

By saying nobody should expect it is pure out and out dangerous

Nobody's said that. Nobody.

22 minutes ago, carpediem4300 said:

I wish i knew to expect bullying and how to cope with it before trying to kill myself twice, perhaps if i knew it was expected and how to cope with it i would of coped better? 

Or perhaps if the bullying was less tolerated because it wasn't to be expected…

19 minutes ago, 14ledo81 said:

First off, the bolded portion is an overly dramatized straw man.  No where did I mention the word rape in this thread.  And I certainly do not look at it like "oh well"....

It's not a straw man. It's a related topic. It's another example where people blame the victim, though, because they should have "expected" it.

Seriously, gotta teach now.  Thank goodness. Between this and the 18-2 thing…

[carpediem4300]

2 minutes ago, iacas said:

So let's do nothing about it. Cool.

(I know deep down that's not what you're actually saying, but… that's certainly how it can come off.)

Nobody's said that. Nobody.

Or perhaps if the bullying was less tolerated because it wasn't to be expected…

It's not a straw man. It's a related topic. It's another example where people blame the victim, though, because they should have "expected" it.

Seriously, gotta teach now.  Thank goodness. Between this and the 18-2 thing…

Of course thats not what im saying, that would go against everything i believe :)

Thats the feeling i got, that we should not expect it and those that say we should are demonized as deniers or victim bullies? I say we do everything we can to fix the problem, but the main fix that will trans pond from generation to generation is to expect the world is a horrible place and to protect ourselves from it.

 

I think your points with @14ledo81 are being lost in translation,........if a non-victim expects that something bad may happen, they can perhaps prevent it, i dont think he is saying that when something bad happens then it is their fault because they should of expected it, or it wouldnt of happened if they expected it, 

[MrDC]

Boo-hoo, don't like it? quit, this is modern life with social media, this will never stop unless someone turns off the internet, so go tend bar if you can't handle the asshole comments, every celebrity has to deal with this, or better yet- just ignore it.

Paige has to accept that she's a star because of her looks, nothing else, and she promoted that, so now she has to deal with the hate for that path to success, and a lot of people don't like it.

Edited December 8, 2016 by MrDC

[phillyk]

When I was in college, I've been to parties where I've seen girls being pushed around or even guys dragging them outside.  Either myself or my friends stepped in every time.  We've gone as far to walk girls home because they were alone and had to go through a sketchy area where this type of thing happens.

Publicly, all it takes is for people to step in and stand up for the victim when it's happening.  At my college, there were martial arts classes and self defense type stuff offered, 75% of the class was female.  We all wish for the best intentions from people, but it's better to be prepared for the worst plus taking these classes were kinda fun.  At schools, unfortunately, it sounds like it's a lot harder for teachers these days to discipline kids properly if doing something really wrong (I really don't know as I don't have kids).  Social media wise, I don't have a good answer.  Places like this is nice where content is moderated. But you can't exactly do that for facebook unless someone gets pissed off by copyright issues, then they are all about it.  

[14ledo81]

14 minutes ago, iacas said:

 

It's not a straw man. It's a related topic. It's another example where people blame the victim, though, because they should have "expected" it.

 

 

How does "expecting" something mean we blame the victim?  I certainly don't.  When I use the word expect, it does not mean I have some nonchalant attitude about this.  I think you (or your side of the debate) is reading a lot into a word.

Getting into what one should actually "expect" to me simply comes down to statistics.  If I do x and greater than 55% of the time y occurs, I expect y to occur 55% of the time every time I do x.  Even if y occurs a very small percentage of the time (say a car accident) I would still expect it to happen a very small percentage of the time (and wear my seat belt). 

[saevel25]

32 minutes ago, 14ledo81 said:

 

How does "expecting" something mean we blame the victim?  I certainly don't.  When I use the word expect, it does not mean I have some nonchalant attitude about this.  I think you (or your side of the debate) is reading a lot into a word.

I get what you are saying. Should they be expecting it, sadly yes. Should that expectation be used as an excuse to turn a blind eye, to keep allowing it to happen, absolutely not. 

Because people are using the expectation as a reason to just accept it as the norm, that the victim should have had hindsight. That it is their fault to begin with. 

Accepting the expectation, and using it as an excuse to turn a blind eye or to pass judgement on the victim, enables bullies. There is no peer pressure to stop when people expect it to happen. Because expecting it, and accepting it, has made it a social norm. 

 

[14ledo81]

9 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

I get what you are saying. Should they be expecting it, sadly yes. Should that expectation be used as an excuse to turn a blind eye, to keep allowing it to happen, absolutely not. 

Because people are using the expectation as a reason to just accept it as the norm, that the victim should have had hindsight. That it is their fault to begin with. 

Accepting the expectation, and using it as an excuse to turn a blind eye or to pass judgement on the victim, enables bullies. There is no peer pressure to stop when people expect it to happen. Because expecting it, and accepting it, has made it a social norm. 

 

 

I get where you are coming from with this, but hopefully enough people can see the difference between "expect" and "accept".

In other words, I "expect" x to happen based on statistics.  I do not "accept" that this is ok, and I fully "expect" that we can do better. 

[GolfLug]

Paige is an adult and certainly very social media experienced and savvy. I am very certain she knew/knows what is lurking out there, so 'captain obviouses' out there continuing to point out this 'worldly knowledge' should consider taking a breather. Just like we all know there will always be assholes, so will social media. 

"Expect" social media to here for good as well with all it's good and bad trappings.   

So in response to "what you are going to do about it?" - post back your own disapproval (and continue to be persistent about it) as much as you can. I am on IG (my only other social media presence) and absolutely will unload in as much a civil manner I can on what I see is an attempt to belittle someone that I follow. Most times don't get a response post back because they really didn't intend to do much more than a drive-by in the first place. But I think it does do something important towards someone who is targeted that can be the difference - It offers a support system. Continue fighting every 'bad' post with a good one post at a time till a better filter system is invented. Be an asshole to the asshole.

Often the most tragic endings are in cases is not those who get the most hate mail but it is those who have the least support.  

  

 

[14ledo81]

8 minutes ago, GolfLug said:

Paige is an adult and certainly very social media experienced and savvy. I am very certain she knew/knows what is lurking out there, so 'captain obviouses' out there continuing to point out this 'worldly knowledge' should consider taking a breather. Just like we all know there will always be assholes, so will social media. 

"Expect" social media to here for good as well with all it's good and bad trappings.   

So in response to "what you are going to do about it?" - post back your own disapproval (and continue to be persistent about it) as much as you can. I am on IG (my only other social media presence) and absolutely will unload in as much a civil manner I can on what I see is an attempt to belittle someone that I follow. Most times don't get a response post back because they really didn't intend to do much more than a drive-by in the first place. But I think it does do something important towards someone who is targeted that can be the difference - It offers a support system. Continue fighting every 'bad' post with a good one post at a time till a better filter system is invented. Be an asshole to the asshole.

Often the most tragic endings are in cases is not those who get the most hate mail but it is those who have the least support.  

  

 

 

Agreed.  A little support goes a long way.

[carpediem4300]

10 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

I get what you are saying. Should they be expecting it, sadly yes. Should that expectation be used as an excuse to turn a blind eye, to keep allowing it to happen, absolutely not. 

Because people are using the expectation as a reason to just accept it as the norm, that the victim should have had hindsight. That it is their fault to begin with. 

Accepting the expectation, and using it as an excuse to turn a blind eye or to pass judgement on the victim, enables bullies. There is no peer pressure to stop when people expect it to happen. Because expecting it, and accepting it, has made it a social norm. 

 

I think the dialogue has resulted in a meeting of minds from two perspectives here, it is good see we all support such things and that people here know right from wrong and want it to be rectified

 

The bit I have bolded I disagree with, because i think it doesnt reflect what some people here are saying anyway, perhaps that is wider society, but i for one believe we should accept the expectation, but not use it as an excuse

[iacas]

1 hour ago, MrDC said:

Boo-hoo, don't like it? quit, this is modern life with social media, this will never stop unless someone turns off the internet, so go tend bar if you can't handle the asshole comments, every celebrity has to deal with this, or better yet- just ignore it.

Paige has to accept that she's a star because of her looks, nothing else, and she promoted that, so now she has to deal with the hate for that path to success, and a lot of people don't like it.

Sometimes I wish the site still had negative reputation.

Paige played college golf for a Division I school and was first-team All-Mountain West. "Nothing else" is inaccurate.

1 hour ago, 14ledo81 said:

How does "expecting" something mean we blame the victim?  I certainly don't.  When I use the word expect, it does not mean I have some nonchalant attitude about this.  I think you (or your side of the debate) is reading a lot into a word.

It's simple: you're saying nothing that isn't already known. We already know "it happens."

"She should expect that sort of thing" doesn't do anything to minimize or reduce the problem. It acknowledges it with more than a tinge of "yeah, but so what?" or "not gonna change" to it. At the most it barely acknowledges that it IS a problem, and it carries with it the same old connotation that at least partially blames the victim, as if they're crying foul when what they're experiencing was "expected."

[RussUK]

8 minutes ago, iacas said:

Sometimes I wish the site still had negative reputation.

 

Im glad you responded to this one @iacas as i couldnt think of a way to repond that was postable. Can we not bring back the negative rep?

Edited December 8, 2016 by RussUK

[iacas]

2 minutes ago, RussUK said:

Im glad you responded to this one @iacas as i couldnt of a way to repond that was postable. Can we not bring back the negative rep?

I could toggle the setting, but it would be abused. Keeping it "positive only" is sort of like "if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all."  At least as it applies to a little button in the bottom right corner of a post…

[GolfLug]

36 minutes ago, 14ledo81 said:

 

Agreed.  A little support goes a long way.

Yes, so let's not continue pointing out directly or indirectly that 'she should know that there are all these creeps...". I would think she is absolutely aware. I know you are on the good side of this debate. 'Expect' is not same as 'accept' but maybe the action here is to not even want to 'expect' to make a bold enough stance.

 

1 hour ago, MrDC said:

Boo-hoo, don't like it? quit, this is modern life with social media, this will never stop unless someone turns off the internet, so go tend bar if you can't handle the asshole comments, every celebrity has to deal with this, or better yet- just ignore it.

Paige has to accept that she's a star because of her looks, nothing else, and she promoted that, so now she has to deal with the hate for that path to success, and a lot of people don't like it.

 Oh, dood..

[phillyk]

I find it ironic that a lot of people who make these bullying comments are also, usually, the ones laughing that it hurts your feelings and that the victims need to grow up.  Wasn't it in 1st grade where they told us to keep our mouth shut if you don't have anything productive or nice to say?  Obviously, these people never grew up and learned manners or respect.  It really isn't hard to be respectful or just keep your super negative comments to yourself.

[14ledo81]

29 minutes ago, iacas said:

 

It's simple: you're saying nothing that isn't already known. We already know "it happens."

"She should expect that sort of thing" doesn't do anything to minimize or reduce the problem. It acknowledges it with more than a tinge of "yeah, but so what?" or "not gonna change" to it. At the most it barely acknowledges that it IS a problem, and it carries with it the same old connotation that at least partially blames the victim, as if they're crying foul when what they're experiencing was "expected."

 

That is not how I mean it at all.  Absolutely no tinges of "yeah, but so what?" on my part.  If you choose to take it that way, that is up to you.

[iacas]

5 minutes ago, 14ledo81 said:

That is not how I mean it at all.  Absolutely no tinges of "yeah, but so what?" on my part.  If you choose to take it that way, that is up to you.

More victim blaming?  Just kidding.

No, it's not just "how I choose to take it." I feel I was pretty clear in that post about why just saying "she should expect it" comes across the way it does. It doesn't do anything - not one little bit - to place blame on the bullies or to reduce, curb, admonish, etc. their behavior.