There are more bad Club Pros than good

[iacas]

34 minutes ago, JustJack2016 said:

In my opinion, the last sentence of the above quote is a great way to sum up this topic.  There are numerous methods of teaching something and there will always be instances where one student might not "click" with the message/method; however, those same words/technique might make absolute sense to another student.

Outside of taking that super literally, I don't really agree with the sentiment I feel is in there.

For example, a good instructor will find a way to get the right information to the most amount of people possible (in whatever way that they "grasp" it).

A crappy instructor not only has the wrong information, but sometimes isn't even a good communicator of that information. They might almost accidentally "help" someone, but on the whole, they're still crappy.

There's a local guy here who is a nice guy, but he doesn't have information. He teaches whatever he saw in Golf Digest. He repeats things all the time. He doesn't use many tools like high-speed video, etc. Perfectly nice guy. Not a good instructor. People might get better working with him, but the odds of it are substantially less, and the rate at which students progress is lower.

34 minutes ago, JustJack2016 said:

While it shouldn't impact how we rate the instructor (or student), there seems to be a natural instinct to pin the "he/she stinks" label and then spread the word. It's wrong--just move on.

It's often not wrong.

34 minutes ago, JustJack2016 said:

If someone really doesn't know what they're doing, survival mode should kick in when they don't have enough students to put food on the table.

You'd think it would work that way… It does not. Sometimes the crappy instructors get the most business.

[JustJack2016]

55 minutes ago, iacas said:

For example, a good instructor will find a way to get the right information to the most amount of people possible (in whatever way that they "grasp" it).

Yes...assuming the student trusts their new instructor and is open to the information the instructor is trying to impart.  "...the most amount of people" was exactly the point I was trying to make.  Just because one person didn't grasp the information/method, it didn't define that instructor as bad--so don't label the instructor as "bad".

Are there bad instructors?  ABSOLUTELY.  Looking at your credentials, I'm sure you could speak volumes about people (instructors and plain old golfers) who can instantly see a major source of the problem, but don't have a clue regarding how to correct the flaw.    They're probably all good people...definitely all bad instructors.  I'm not talking about those people.  The instructors I'm talking about are people who know a variety of methods and techniques to get the average person back on track.  The final point I was trying to make is, if I were a betting man (and I am), I would say the issues lie more in the student's court than the instructor's office.  Whether it's in the form of trust, openness to change, grasp of the concept, or simple communication barriers.  I hear what you're saying, but you're comparing good vs bad...and I'm comparing good vs good (just not a good fit for that particular student).

I'll take your word that the worst instructors have the most business--I'm sure you have your source for that information.  My experience sees those folks getting less traffic.  What's most unfortunate is my experience of seeing and hearing people bad-mouth an instructor after a lesson or two.  Really?  Multiple years of ingraining bad habits and someone is spreading the word about the instructor's worth because the student didn't get better after an hour or two (and committed zero practice on the session's focus).  To take it further, others bad-mouth that same instructor even though they never said "hello" to each other.  I'll say it again...it's wrong. 

 

[iacas]

1 minute ago, JustJack2016 said:

Yes...assuming the student trusts their new instructor and is open to the information the instructor is trying to impart.  "...the most amount of people" was exactly the point I was trying to make.  Just because one person didn't grasp the information/method, it didn't define that instructor as bad--so don't label the instructor as "bad".

As a one-off? Sure. But there are bad instructors, and people should be free to say it.

Imagine a bad instructor and yet nobody's willing to say it. People will keep going to the guy. How does that help anyone?

1 minute ago, JustJack2016 said:

I'm not talking about those people.  The instructors I'm talking about are people who know a variety of methods and techniques to get the average person back on track.

Sadly, the people you're talking about are in a small minority.

1 minute ago, JustJack2016 said:

The final point I was trying to make is, if I were a betting man (and I am), I would say the issues lie more in the student's court than the instructor's office.

I'd take the bet. You really seem to be under-estimating how many bad instructors are out there. In any sport.

1 minute ago, JustJack2016 said:

I hear what you're saying, but you're comparing good vs bad...and I'm comparing good vs good (just not a good fit for that particular student).

If "good" instructors are few and far between - I'll be generous and say 10% - then the "good instructors" who are not a "good fit" will be incredibly rare.

Part of being a good instructor is to help the student with the trust, or understanding, or "buy-in," or whatever else you mentioned.

[JustJack2016]

19 minutes ago, iacas said:

Part of being a good instructor is to help the student with the trust, or understanding, or "buy-in," or whatever else you mentioned.

oops...I forgot to address you with these questions:

Would you consider yourself a good instructor?

Have you fixed everybody who came to you?

Have you ever had anybody doubt (or not understand) what you're trying to say?

[shanksalot]

I have only had a few lessons with different instructors.The Pro where I lived years ago was considered the best around. I went to him and he worked that day with me trying to correct a fault that he saw in my swing the day before when we were out playing a round together. We just did not connect and after the lesson I went to pay him and he told me no, I did not help you. We went into the office and he handed me a book on the golf swing, one that I have to this day that I look at when my swing goes astray. Some time later I went to another instructor and in about 10 minutes he solved my problem entirely. The funny thing about it was it was his older brother that worked at a course I still sometimes play. Both pros are rated as very good. Yet one almost immediately help me and the other recognized we did not connect and tried another way to reach me. In another thread I mentioned that being able to understand how someone learns is tantamount to teaching them or helping them improve their swing. Most people don't learn the same way. Not a bad teacher nor a back student, just two humans who do not connect. 

[iacas]

9 minutes ago, JustJack2016 said:

oops...I forgot to address you with these questions:

Would you consider yourself a good instructor?

Have you fixed everybody who came to you?

Have you ever had anybody doubt (or not understand) what you're trying to say?

That's beside the point.

Those who came to me and didn't improve through my fault are welcome to tell others they had a bad experience, and that it was my fault.

The number of students who have good things to say will drown them out.

[JustJack2016]

1 minute ago, iacas said:

That's beside the point.

Those who came to me and didn't improve through my fault are welcome to tell others they had a bad experience, and that it was my fault.

Well...I think if you read my post again, you'll see it's EXACTLY my point.  You're either a good instructor or you're not a good instructor.  You're trying to lawyer-up and graciously grant permission to anyone who didn't improve based on section 3.2.7, paragraph 5 which states, "Should a student not improve on the basis of instructor error, the student shall not be held liable for publicly declaring instructor error."

I guess a better way of asking the questions...when you personally felt it wasn't YOUR fault, have you fixed everybody who came to you?  Also, through no fault of your own, have you ever had anyone doubt or not understand what you're trying to impart?

You don't have to answer because I know the answer.  So if Golf Digest's Instructor of the Year has those types of incidents, there's probably a chance that the 10 percent (your unvalidated statistic) of good instructors with lesser credentials have fared worse. 

[Hatchman]

How would the bad golfer know it wasn't their flaws causing the instructional gaps?  And vice versa.

[iacas]

14 minutes ago, JustJack2016 said:

Well...I think if you read my post again, you'll see it's EXACTLY my point.

I don't think so. I feel like you want to blame "not a good fit" FAR more often than it should. The number of times "not a good fit" is a legitimate reason is negligible. Most often, it's the fault of someone: either the instructor sucks (quite common), the student didn't put in the required effort (less common, still too frequent), or a combination of both.

The problem is that golfers don't know if their instructor sucks. They're often far too often eager to blame themselves. They'll seemingly get "better" during a lesson (because they've been hitting a 7-iron for 45 minutes and have a feel for it now), and then leave, having learned nothing, and return to sucking. They blame themselves and try to remember - and enact - the 10 or 15 things the instructor said over those 45 minutes.

That's bad instruction.

A good instructor doesn't have that problem. They communicate clearly to the student. They work with the student so that they understand what and why. It's also easier, because a good instructor doesn't have 10 or 15 things, they have one or two.

14 minutes ago, JustJack2016 said:

I guess a better way of asking the questions...when you personally felt it wasn't YOUR fault, have you fixed everybody who came to you?  Also, through no fault of your own, have you ever had anyone doubt or not understand what you're trying to impart?

When it wasn't my fault, have I fixed everyone? No. Sometimes students don't put in the work. But that's less common than someone being a bad instructor, in the general scheme of things.

Have I ever had anyone doubt what I've said? During a lesson, sure. I encourage them to ask questions. Answering them helps them understand and "buy in." At the end of a lesson? No. Not that I know of. That's part of what makes me good at what I do.

14 minutes ago, JustJack2016 said:

You don't have to answer because I know the answer.  So if Golf Digest's Instructor of the Year has those types of incidents, there's probably a chance that the 10 percent (your unvalidated statistic) of good instructors with lesser credentials have fared worse. 

I feel as though you're not reading what I'm writing. Which is fine, I'm sure I could write more clearly. You're newish to the site, and so I'm probably writing a bit less as I've written on this topic many, many, many times before.

But…

• The vast majority of poor instruction is a result of bad instructors. Full stop. The number of "good instructors" is few and far between. (And yeah, of course that's an opinion, as there's no empirical way to determine "good" or "bad".)
• Part of what makes someone a good instructor is that they get through to people regularly. By rule. Standard practice. The number of times a student doesn't "get it" or whatever are really rare. The number of times the instructor "fails" at his job is really rare. That's part of why they're good.

[mvmac]

47 minutes ago, JustJack2016 said:

Would you consider yourself a good instructor?

Have you fixed everybody who came to you?

@JustJack2016 yes he is for the reasons he's mentioned, information and communication. I'll add he's one of the most knowledgeable people on the golf swing, has helped many student make lasting changes (from pros to higher handicappers) and spends a lot of his free time helping people in this site. 

Also this,

 

[mvmac]

24 minutes ago, Hatchman said:

How would the bad golfer know it wasn't their flaws causing the instructional gaps?  And vice versa.

Because a good instructor should be able to overcome those flaws. Record swings, have the student make slow exaggerated swings, record those and compare against the before swings. Show them they can change and "hold their hand" to make sure they do it. A good instructor will communicate what's going on, why it's happening and how to fix it. The "HOW" will require a variety of steps and enlist the efforts of the instructor and most importantly the student. If the student doesn't do their "homework" (mindful practice and a understanding of why they're making these changes) the one hour lesson once a month is only going to do so much. Like @mchepp said, not all of the blame can be with the instructor (as long as the student is getting decent information).

[JustJack2016]

2 hours ago, iacas said:

I feel like you want to blame "not a good fit" FAR more often than it shoul

2 hours ago, iacas said:

The vast majority of poor instruction is a result of bad instructors. Full stop.

d.

You felt that, did you?  All I said was if a person doesn't connect, move on.  

 

2 hours ago, iacas said:

I feel as though you're not reading what I'm writing.

Likewise.

 

2 hours ago, iacas said:

When it wasn't my fault, have I fixed everyone? No. Sometimes students don't put in the work.

 I believe I wrote similar words.  So why put the blame on the instructor?  If you that rarely happens, you would be mistaken--83 percent of people involved in a disconnected relationship cites the source of the problem as a variable other than themselves.  **Not really, but I wanted to have one of my own official statistics thrown into this equation**

 

2 hours ago, iacas said:

the student didn't put in the required effort (less common, still too frequent)

By "required effort", I hope you're referring to practicing the lesson and not just time spent  doing something on the range/course.  It would be interesting to know if ALL of your associates (not just the ones in your inner circle) hold the same opinion.  In any case, it doesn't matter...I've lost trust in what you'll tell me regarding this opinionated topic, so I'll ask someone else the question.  **P.S.  if anyone asks, I'm blaming you for this disconnect between us**

2 hours ago, iacas said:

The vast majority of poor instruction is a result of bad instructors. Full stop.

Since I didn't want to end the night on a negative, I'll post the only thing I believe we agree on.  Can I get your permission to use this quote?

I'm not a guy who takes takes takes...so here is my exchange quote:

The vast majority of poor individual effort is caused by the individual.  Half stop.  Half stop.  

[JustJack2016]

2 hours ago, mvmac said:

@JustJack2016 yes he is for the reasons he's mentioned, information and communication. I'll add he's one of the most knowledgeable people on the golf swing, has helped many student make lasting changes (from pros to higher handicappers) and spends a lot of his free time helping people in this site. 

Also this,

 

I'm sure he is a very good instructor...and I hope I didn't say or infer otherwise.  Remember, I'm the guy who wants the student to look at themselves first (not blame)--wholeheartedly get yourself ready to receive instruction.  

[iacas]

8 minutes ago, JustJack2016 said:

You felt that, did you?  All I said was if a person doesn't connect, move on.

That's not quite all you've said. If I had to boil down my difference of opinion on this topic to one bit it'd be this:

5 hours ago, JustJack2016 said:

There are numerous methods of teaching something and there will always be instances where one student might not "click" with the message/method; however, those same words/technique might make absolute sense to another student.  While it shouldn't impact how we rate the instructor (or student), there seems to be a natural instinct to pin the "he/she stinks" label and then spread the word.  It's wrong--just move on.

It's not wrong. I disagree with that wholeheartedly. It's right and we need more of that type of thing. Most instructors are lousy, and golfers either blaming themselves or keeping mum about the bad experience they had, simply allows the bad instructor to suck in more people and continue to harm the game and the business of the good instructors.

Bad instructors are bad for ALL instructors, including the good ones.

10 minutes ago, JustJack2016 said:

I believe I wrote similar words.  So why put the blame on the instructor?

Because most instructors deserve the blame!

10 minutes ago, JustJack2016 said:

Not really, but I wanted to have one of my own official statistics thrown into this equation.

It's not a "made up statistic." It's just my opinion, based on a fair amount of experience. As I said there's no real objective way to measure whether someone is "good" or "bad."

10 minutes ago, JustJack2016 said:

In any case, it doesn't matter...I've lost trust in what you'll tell me regarding this opinionated topic, so I'll ask someone else the question.

Why be rude? You're gonna get a lot of the same answers here, particularly from those who have been exposed to good instruction.

And that too is part of the problem: because of the prevalence of poor instruction, golfers often don't know what good instruction is. They have no basis for comparison.

3 minutes ago, JustJack2016 said:

I'm sure he is a very good instructor...and I hope I didn't say or infer otherwise.  Remember, I'm the guy who wants the student to look at themselves first (not blame)--wholeheartedly get yourself ready to receive instruction.  

The point of the quote of mine that you mocked is to reiterate that most instructors are lousy, yet golfers look the other way and blame themselves for their poor lessons instead of holding the instructor(s) accountable. It's frustrating because it harms golf, it harms golf instruction, it harms golfers.

[Strat-Pack Rick]

@iacas Dont give away all your secrets that make you great just to make your point. I want to be taught aggressively , like a football coach would be. Do you teach differently per the student ? Or do you have system like kindergarten thru 12-grade ? I feel like I would respond best to "do this like this or pick the balls off the range by hand you dummy", haha. If im paying to get better at golf, I would want to go at it, ya know !

[RandallT]

20 minutes ago, Strat-Pack Rick said:

@iacas Dont give away all your secrets that make you great just to make your point. I want to be taught aggressively , like a football coach would be. Do you teach differently per the student ? Or do you have system like kindergarten thru 12-grade ? I feel like I would respond best to "do this like this or pick the balls off the range by hand you dummy", haha. If im paying to get better at golf, I would want to go at it, ya know !

I'm gonna slap an "off topic" label on this post @Strat-Pack Rick. No hard feelings but let's keep this about broad categorizations of instructors and not about Erik's teaching style. He has an AMA thread if you'd like to ask him anything specific. Thanks!

[JonMA1]

At the risk of sounding overly positive, I've received lessons or advice from 4 instructors outside of this forum, and each provided something of value - even my first instructor who I now realize was very poor. Unfortunately, he also provided some damaging information.

[Hardspoon]

The anecdotal evidence I have available cuts both ways...I've been lucky in that both of the instructors I've taken lessons from are very good.  On the other hand, I've overhead or heard stories of enough truly awful instruction to think that the bad instructors probably outweigh the good.