There are more bad Club Pros than good

[Kalnoky]

My first instructor knew his stuff, but getting on in years and a little crotchety. I also short-circuited the experience by going on YouTube a lot. But in my defense, I went on YouTube a lot because I felt like the guy didn't answer my questions in a satisfactory manner. I felt like he was trying to "trick" me into a good golf swing. My mind unfortunately doesn't work that way, so I fired him.

My second instructor I've been with 6 months now. He is a likable guy, very patient, and he answers my questions. If I stop him and say, "how far are my hands supposed to be, etc." he will dignify the question. I took another lesson on Wednesday, and for the first time, I pushed back a little bit. I told him, this hurts my back, I would like to stand closer, etc. And perhaps not surprisingly, it was our best lesson yet. My feedback gave him clarity how best to approach my swing. I could see it on his face he was happy with the results. I'm going to stay with this instructor because I am improving. My biggest knock on him is he experiments too much. 

 

Edited December 15, 2016 by Kalnoky

[JustJack2016]

6 hours ago, iacas said:

It's not wrong. I disagree with that wholeheartedly.

Your wholehearted opinion has been noted.   I didn't care the first couple of times you said it...and I still don't care that you hold that opinion.

You made it painfully obvious you believe the vast majority of golf instructors suck...a generalized a sad opinion of your compadres, but it's your opinion.  I never said the instructor in my scenario was bad--you made that assumption.  I said the instructor and student didn’t click...move on.  I'm not sure if I'm looking at this from a glass half-empty or half-full perspective; however, it's glaring that you have a 90 percent empty perspective on this matter.  From the scenario I presented, I think they should part ways, but you want to instantaneously label this person as "bad".  Well more than that...they're bad instructors...they harm people...they hurt golf instruction...and they're ruining everything that is golf.  I would say that's steep in drama, but your blatant prejudice toward club pros lessens the drama.

6 hours ago, iacas said:

It's not a "made up statistic." It's just my opinion, based on a fair amount of experience. As I said there's no real objective way to measure whether someone is "good" or "bad."

Uhmmm...I believe putting a percentage on something based on your personal experience is the epitome of a made up statistic.  You state there's no objective way to measure whether someone is "good" or "bad", yet somehow you're managing to categorize 90 percent of your brethren as bad.  Do you even know 10 percent of PGA certified teaching pros?  

6 hours ago, iacas said:

Why be rude? You're gonna get a lot of the same answers here

Well...I honestly don't care if you side with me or not.  I agree...there are a lot of the same answers; however, none of the others addressed me specifically to tell me MY OPINION is wrong.  For some reason, you seem to believe you're the only one entitled to an opinion.  I have news for you...even though I'm a newbie, I'm quite confident we both will have others not sharing our perspectives...I'm okay with that.  Are you?  For what it's worth, when you have no data to back up your claim, your opinion is just that--your opinion.  Making up numbers in an attempt to support your story doesn’t make you look smart.

6 hours ago, iacas said:

The point of the quote of mine that you mocked is to reiterate that most instructors are lousy

It was more of a facetious comment than mockery.  You tell me I'm missing something because I'm new to this site and you didn't want to repeat all of the things you said in previous threads.  I understand what you're saying.  Then you summed up your entire philosophy into two blurbs.  **drumroll**  What was it again?  The vast majority of bad instruction is caused by bad instructors.  Or something like that.  It's part humorous and part sad.  Part of me wanted to delve into the depths of your words, but my frontal cortex pulled me back and validated there wasn't anything there.  It's like having the news on as background noise and then hearing a segment about a grown man who drowned in three feet of water.  When you rewind the broadcast and pay attention to the entire story, you still don't know if the words you're hearing are actually coming out of someone's mouth.  What?  He drowned in three feet of water...and he died right next to his swimming instructor who tried everything imaginable to save him.  He yelled, "STAND UP!!", "GET ON YOUR FEET!!", "BEND YOUR KNEES", "STRAIGHTEN YOUR LEFT ARM!!", ...everything he could think of, but the water created a communication barrier between them.

7 hours ago, iacas said:

golfers look the other way and blame themselves

Again...I didn't say golfers should blame.  In my scenario, I said the opposite.

7 hours ago, iacas said:

instead of holding the instructor(s) accountable

Now...I attempt to address the doubletalk, rated at a 6.23 degree of difficulty.  There are people who have the ability to muddle through the records and accomplishments of thousands of golf instructors and deem one person as the best, but that same committee can't spot a few unsavory instructors?  It's probably not as difficult as I'm making it sound.  Before the official search began, the committee had probably already eliminated everyone holding a "Club Pro" and "Assistant Club Pro" job title, those without high-speed cameras, and all of those who have a second job.  Although that reduced some of my confusion, I begin thinking about you said, "most people wouldn't know a good instructor from a bad instructor".  Whether that's true or not isn't the issue.  The issue is you want those unskilled people to arbitrarily identify and label all of the bad instructors.  WHOA.  Why not have someone from the PGA...you know, people who "might" have the skill set to identify/maintain a standard...why not have them identify the despicables?  They have no problem handing out credentials, but I'm starting to believe they have no idea how to withdraw those credentials.  

In conclusion, I have to say none of my old opinions have changed...but, I'm now the owner of a brand new opinion:  I'm starting to believe the number one problem in American golf is that the PGA feels unknowledgeable and unqualified golfers should act as their surrogate lynchmen.  It seems as though there is a movement to create chaos and distrust of the club pro in an effort to eradicate "them" (the bad people) in an effort to make the average Joe come to "us" (the good people)?  Okay...eradicate was the wrong word--I'm sure a few of "them" might successfully convert to some of "us".  Regardless, it seems as though the average Joe is being used to identify and subsequently eliminate the bad apples because the PGA has no idea (or lacks the necessary courage) when it comes to regulating the instructors they sent out to instruct The People.  This resonates...historically speaking...and it sounds a lot like the Pope covering up for pedophilic priests as opposed to taking effective corrective actions.  Uncanny...

[Hatchman]

I'm trying to follow you @JustJack2016 and agree with many points.  Some I disagree with, naturally.  I have my own ideas and personal experiences with PGA professionals, live on a course, belong to two others.   Don't know where this argument is going but the last paragraph analogy wasn't a very good illustration, IMO.   A shorter post to convey a point helps too.  

About Club Pros: One, just leans on and drags an iron around at the range.  Probably wouldn't use him.  Others interact with their students communicating, even with players.  

 

[boogielicious]

3 hours ago, JustJack2016 said:

 Why not have someone from the PGA...you know, people who "might" have the skill set to identify/maintain a standard...why not have them identify the despicables?  They have no problem handing out credentials, but I'm starting to believe they have no idea how to withdraw those credentials.  

There lies the problem. There is no standard of evaluation nor a standard of curriculum. Each has their own methods and many think they are Harvey Penick. Everyone and their brother thinks they know the "secret" and they can tell just by looking at a few swings what the issue is.

There are a few folks on this site who are members of the PGA and have gone through the PGA training and have stated it doesn't teach them how to be good teacher or give them and standard way of teaching. You appear to be resistant to that assessment.

[iacas]

19 hours ago, JustJack2016 said:

The issue is you want those unskilled people to arbitrarily identify and label all of the bad instructors.  WHOA.

That's not what I said. I want people to say "I didn't get any better with that instructor" instead of remaining silent.

19 hours ago, JustJack2016 said:

Why not have someone from the PGA...you know, people who "might" have the skill set to identify/maintain a standard...why not have them identify the despicables?  They have no problem handing out credentials, but I'm starting to believe they have no idea how to withdraw those credentials.

They're not qualified. The PGA program teaches you very little about instruction, and a lot of that is confusing, wrong, etc. There are fantastic teachers who have never even considered entering the PGA program.

19 hours ago, JustJack2016 said:

In conclusion, I have to say none of my old opinions have changed...but, I'm now the owner of a brand new opinion:  I'm starting to believe the number one problem in American golf is that the PGA feels unknowledgeable and unqualified golfers should act as their surrogate lynchmen.

You don't have to be a PGA member to be an instructor.

And again, I'm not asking for "lynchings," but rather for average golfers to consider the possibility that they're not the ones at fault when they have a bad lesson with someone, and to share that. To hold their golf instructors to a higher standard.

19 hours ago, JustJack2016 said:

Regardless, it seems as though the average Joe is being used to identify and subsequently eliminate the bad apples because the PGA has no idea (or lacks the necessary courage) when it comes to regulating the instructors they sent out to instruct The People.  This resonates...historically speaking...and it sounds a lot like the Pope covering up for pedophilic priests as opposed to taking effective corrective actions.

Okay…?

Let's tone it down a bit, hmmmm? Lynchings, popes and pedophiles… etc. It's just golf, man.

[gregsandiego]

On 12/13/2016 at 10:43 AM, Kalnoky said:

I think this ^^^ is 100% accurate.

I don't really understand what my instructor is saying sometimes. It take a few practices for the light bulb to come on. I sometimes think he can do a better job of explaining, but then sometimes I just think I am a slow learner.. probably a bit of both. 

 

I have the same issue. The swing is such a complex 3 dimensional action, that describing some element of it leaves me often puzzled.

I often need to keep rewording and retrying what the instructor tells me until we arrive at some description we agree on.

Like - oh you mean keep the elbow in ??

[JustJack2016]

On 12/15/2016 at 5:32 AM, Hatchman said:

Don't know where this argument is going but the last paragraph analogy wasn't a very good illustration, IMO.  

A shorter post to convey a point helps too.  

About Club Pros:

 

Truth be told, I initially wanted to draw a comparison between  the posted ideologies and ethnic cleansing; however, at the last minute, I decided to go for full-shock value.  Nothing puckers your ProV1s more than a pedophillic priest parallel.  Too much?  

I read it twice and liked it both times, but, I admit I'm biased.  In my opinion, the dude drowning in three feet of water was my favorite.

About club pros--and this is what this is REALLY about--you provided examples of good and bad.  That's life in a nutshell.  Another reality in life is that once a group has been labeled or stigmatized, ALL members of that group have to overcome that stigma.  Being the best isn't even on the radar scope for members of that group--they're hoping to get enough customers just to put food on the table.  

When a comment is made..."there are more bad club pros than good", it's an interesting opinion and a great way to start a conversation.  Unfortunately, when the crowd starts to get unruly, it's bad example after bad example...and then finished off with a "90 percent are bad" blow from the guy with credentials.  Some people will just take those as the gospel.  Others might wonder, "Is it true?  I don't know...but it MUST be true if HE said it."  I look at that commebt and think, "I don't know if it's remotely accurate; but what I DO know is that the only way to acquire that knowledge is to select a representative sample of all teaching pros and perform an experiment...and HE certainly did not validate anything.  All he did was strengthen the  bias against  everyone in the "Club Pro" category.  

If a person could only afford taking lessons from a local club pro and that person goes into a lesson  with  preconceived  club pro notions...is that going to be an effective lesson?  That person will spend more time wondering about the club pro than trying to apply the information they're trying to impart.  

If you're there for the lesson, MENTALLY BE THERE for the lesson.

I agree...I need more concise posts...and I'm trying.  I'm on step 2 of my 12-step program (On and On and On and On Anon).

14 hours ago, iacas said:

It's just golf, man.

Well...for me, it is just a game.  For others, it's their livelihood.  For the past six decades that I know of, the club pro has had a bad rap as being good at operating a cash register and not much more than that.  There are some good ones out there.  Unfortunately, the rumors about their worth continue to spread, mostly by people who "have heard stories" and never had any personal experience.  Human nature is what it is.  

On one side of the game, there's a push:  "If you want more information, see your Iocal PGA Professional."  On the other end of the rope are people with a following...maybe someone with accolades and credentials...and their followers want to hear their take on the matter.  Rather than promote the game by advocating the "See your local PGA Professional", you sabbotage the message and add strength to the stigma that 90 percent are bad.  There's nothing about an individual instructor...you just lumped EVERY club pro or wouldbe instructor into a pile without regard to anything.  The sad thing is, you did it with minimal knowledge of who is good or bad.  You based your made up statistic based on a few personal experiences (maybe) and a lot of heresay (probably) from the folks in YOUR circle.  You didn't justify anything...all you did was use your status to perpetuate a stigma.  

It's just a game..except for those trying to make a living and now have to overcome an over-generalized comment from someone ranked by Golf Digest.  

By the way...I never said "CONGRATS!"  Not for the award...but congrats on perfecting golf's "knock-down" shot.  Well played...

[iacas]

39 minutes ago, JustJack2016 said:

Too much?

Yep.

You're free to assign as much value as you want to my opinion. I've worked with hundreds of instructors, and have trained over 100 as well.

And again, "90%" is an expression of my opinion, not a "statistic." (Definition: "a fact or piece of data from a study of a large quantity of numerical data.")

At the end of the day, I disagreed with your notion that the golfer who has some "bad lessons" not just "move on" and say nothing. It would help the industry if they didn't remain silent. The message I'd like to see get out there: there are good instructors out there, but you may have to do a little homework to make sure you find one.

44 minutes ago, JustJack2016 said:

On one side of the game, there's a push:  "If you want more information, see your Iocal PGA Professional."  On the other end of the rope are people with a following...maybe someone with accolades and credentials...and their followers want to hear their take on the matter.  Rather than promote the game by advocating the "See your local PGA Professional", you sabbotage the message and add strength to the stigma that 90 percent are bad.

"See your local PGA Professional" is a message put out by the PGA. It's advertising, and self-promotion.

I disagree that telling people to see someone who is more likely than not bad at giving instruction is "promoting the game." It's doing the opposite.

44 minutes ago, JustJack2016 said:

There's nothing about an individual instructor...you just lumped EVERY club pro or wouldbe instructor into a pile without regard to anything.

Obviously I can't speak in generalities while singling out individual instructors.

If a guy goes to a random instructor, odds are he'll get what in my opinion is a lousy lesson. Most instructors are not good at what they do (also: my definition of "good").

All it takes to overcome this is a little homework. If someone's going to spend $70+ on a golf lesson, asking them to do a little homework and check on things a bit is not a bad thing, IMO. It's easy to do.

44 minutes ago, JustJack2016 said:

The sad thing is, you did it with minimal knowledge of who is good or bad.

I have a lot more knowledge about it than most golfers.

44 minutes ago, JustJack2016 said:

You based your made up statistic based on a few personal experiences (maybe) and a lot of heresay (probably) from the folks in YOUR circle.  You didn't justify anything...all you did was use your status to perpetuate a stigma.

You don't know me very well. And again, it wasn't a "statistic." It was an opinion. Not everything with a number attached to it is a "statistic."

44 minutes ago, JustJack2016 said:

It's just a game..except for those trying to make a living and now have to overcome an over-generalized comment from someone ranked by Golf Digest.

I have to overcome the stigma they've created by giving bad lessons for so long!

[JustJack2016]

6 minutes ago, iacas said:

And again, "90%" is an expression of my opinion, not a "statistic." Definition: "a fact or piece of data from a study of a large quantity of numerical data."

An opinion is...there are more bad club pros than there are good.

When you assign a percentage...you're creating a bogus statistic.  What you're saying isn't a fact and you certainly didn't derive it from a study using a large quantity of numerical data.

Using your own experience, you've seen hundreds and you've trained hundreds.  I'll take your word for that.  If you had to guess...how many golf instructors have existed in your lifetime?  You can limit your guess to golf instructors in the U.S.  Now, here's where things get a little tricky.  Out of all of the instructors YOU have experience with...are they a good representative sample of ALL golf instructors?

[mvmac]

1 hour ago, JustJack2016 said:

If a person could only afford taking lessons from a local club pro and that person goes into a lesson  with  preconceived  club pro notions...is that going to be an effective lesson?  That person will spend more time wondering about the club pro than trying to apply the information they're trying to impart.

If a golfer is that worried then they didn't do their homework. Would be like going to a doctor or lawyer without getting some references.

A good instructor will also be able to alleviate those concerns early on because stuff will make sense and the golfer won't be inundated with silly Golf Digest jargon.

1 hour ago, JustJack2016 said:

Others might wonder, "Is it true?  I don't know...but it MUST be true if HE said it."  I look at that commebt and think, "I don't know if it's remotely accurate; but what I DO know is that the only way to acquire that knowledge is to select a representative sample of all teaching pros and perform an experiment...and HE certainly did not validate anything.  All he did was strengthen the  bias against  everyone in the "Club Pro" category.  

Well to those left wondering, yes it's very much true. The vast majority of instructors are not qualified to teach the golf swing. It's gradually changing but a lot of instructors still don't know why the ball starts on the line it does. It would be like most doctors thinking the heart was located on the right side of the chest.

Calling out bad instructors is good for golf.

11 minutes ago, JustJack2016 said:

An opinion is...there are more bad club pros than there are good.

It's not an opinion, it's the truth.

[JustJack2016]

23 minutes ago, iacas said:

I have to overcome the stigma they've created by giving bad lessons for so long!

You probably should have googled the word "stigma".  Yes, I'm sure all of the instructors at whatever facility you work for have a stigma of being poor instructors.  That's probably what led Golf Digest in your direction.  Just a bunch of club pros at that place, but somehow they managed to overcome those obstacles and impart sound instruction. 

[mvmac]

1 minute ago, JustJack2016 said:

Yes, I'm sure all of the instructors at whatever facility you work for have a stigma of being poor instructors.  

They don't otherwise they wouldn't work there.

[Golfingdad]

On 12/14/2016 at 11:58 PM, JustJack2016 said:

 Although that reduced some of my confusion, I begin thinking about you said, "most people wouldn't know a good instructor from a bad instructor".  Whether that's true or not isn't the issue.  The issue is you want those unskilled people to arbitrarily identify and label all of the bad instructors.  WHOA.  Why not have someone from the PGA...you know, people who "might" have the skill set to identify/maintain a standard...why not have them identify the despicables?  They have no problem handing out credentials, but I'm starting to believe they have no idea how to withdraw those credentials.

 I would count myself among the "unskilled" group you are referring to here, but I think you're wrong about characterizing @iacas's words as suggesting that people should be arbitrary about any of this.  There is nothing arbitrary about it - it's quite specific.  If I go to instructor A and I don't improve and then I go to instructor B and then I do improve, can I not draw a conclusion from that?  For the sake of that argument, let's assume that I put in the same amount of work in each case.  The only variable left is the instructor, so why couldn't I say that A was bad and B was good?  What makes that arbitrary?

Also, it's not like anybody is suggesting we go picket in front of our respective clubs and ask the crappy instructors to wear scarlet letters or anything.  I think all that is being said is that students should give themselves a little more credit and be able to recognize that if one instructor was good, it's entirely possible that the other was bad and it wasn't simply a matter of "clicking" or anything like that.

[iacas]

21 minutes ago, JustJack2016 said:

An opinion is...there are more bad club pros than there are good.

When you assign a percentage...you're creating a bogus statistic.  What you're saying isn't a fact and you certainly didn't derive it from a study using a large quantity of numerical data.

No, it's not, and that's enough about that. Few reasonable people would take that as a "statistic," particularly after they hear the definition, and particularly after I've clarified that it's not at all a statistic and merely a way of expressing more clearly how many instructors are "bad" in my opinion.

21 minutes ago, JustJack2016 said:

Using your own experience, you've seen hundreds and you've trained hundreds.  I'll take your word for that.  If you had to guess...how many golf instructors have existed in your lifetime?

So I can't extrapolate, and trust people to give my opinion the weight they feel is appropriate?

Do we dismiss presidential polls because they don't ask all or even the majority or even 5% of the population who they'll vote for?

21 minutes ago, JustJack2016 said:

Now, here's where things get a little tricky.  Out of all of the instructors YOU have experience with...are they a good representative sample of ALL golf instructors?

The sad thing is… I've actually probably seen far more people from the better half of all instructors, because they're the ones who are at least seeking more knowledge and doing work outside of giving lessons.

The guys and gals who are truly terrible I almost never run into. They're generally not seeking more knowledge or to improve.

9 minutes ago, JustJack2016 said:

You probably should have googled the word "stigma".

I used the word appropriately. There's a stigma that most people who take lessons don't get any better, that the golf instruction game is a waste of time or money.

9 minutes ago, JustJack2016 said:

Yes, I'm sure all of the instructors at whatever facility you work for have a stigma of being poor instructors.

There are two of us. One's a two-time PGA Section Teacher of the Year, and co-author of my book. I'm the other.

We work with others on our online instructional platform, and they've been trained by us, and were good before being trained by us, and I can vouch for their credibility as well. They're good instructors.

---

In a sentence or two, Jack, what's your point? What are you trying to say?

[14ledo81]

22 minutes ago, iacas said:

In a sentence or two, Jack, what's your point? What are you trying to say?

I think Jack is an instructor.  Probably a bad one......

 

[iacas]

4 minutes ago, 14ledo81 said:

I think Jack is an instructor.  Probably a bad one......

I don't think so.

[JustJack2016]

9 minutes ago, mvmac said:

It's not an opinion, it's the truth.

True or not...it's an opinion.

There are more bad club pros than good..an opinion

There are more good club pros than bad..an opinion.

There is an equal amount of good and bad club pros..an opinion

Personal opinion and personal experience doesn’t derive fact.  An experiment using a representative sample of the population (of teaching professionals) "might" derive a fact (if enough factors can validate the numbers).

Until then..your opinion is that it's the truth.  I value that opinion and I may or may not agree with it.  If you look back at my messages, I haven't said one way or the other...LOL

10 minutes ago, Golfingdad said:

For the sake of that argument, let's assume that I put in the same amount of work in each case.  The only variable left is the instructor, so why couldn't I say that A was bad and B was good?  What makes that arbitrary?

Also, it's not like anybody is suggesting we go picket in front of our respective clubs

You're saying this because you're only reading "some" of the content presented.  He said most people wouldn't know good instruction from bad...but he wants those people to call out those instructors as being bad.

He has no knowledge about the instructor or what was said/not said.  He has no knowledge of equipment or techniques used/not used.  It didn't work...label them as bad.  There are a LOT of variables in that equation...the boss is riding me at work, my wife is ill, my kid's having problems at school, my back is a little sore, I think he said this, but I misinterpretted what he said, I've ingrained this bad habit the last 30 years and this hack can't correct it in one full session...yadda yadda.

You're right...you're not picketing in front of your respective club.  Why not?  If you have an issue with a specific club or individual...PICKET...be specific!!   In here it's a generalized accusation about club pros?  Which ones?  All of them...naaaaa, just 90 percent...

[Golfingdad]

7 minutes ago, JustJack2016 said:

You're saying this because you're only reading "some" of the content presented.  He said most people wouldn't know good instruction from bad...but he wants those people to call out those instructors as being bad.

He has no knowledge about the instructor or what was said/not said.  He has no knowledge of equipment or techniques used/not used.  It didn't work...label them as bad.  There are a LOT of variables in that equation...the boss is riding me at work, my wife is ill, my kid's having problems at school, my back is a little sore, I think he said this, but I misinterpretted what he said, I've ingrained this bad habit the last 30 years and this hack can't correct it in one full session...yadda yadda.

You're right...you're not picketing in front of your respective club.  Why not?  If you have an issue with a specific club or individual...PICKET...be specific!!   In here it's a generalized accusation about club pros?  Which ones?  All of them...naaaaa, just 90 percent...

Yeah, this is not at all what he is saying.