There are more bad Club Pros than good

[Hatchman]

20 minutes ago, 14ledo81 said:

I think Jack is an instructor.  Probably a bad one......

 

Probably more than that as I read into it.  This discussion on Club Pros abilities not their certifications morphed into a personal challenge by a 6 decade, partially completed 12 stepper, who likes to try and shock people.  Old game.  The obvious target IMO was the earned tag Golf Digest America's Young Teachers.  Once you achieve some success others become troubled.

[JustJack2016]

1 hour ago, iacas said:

There are two of us. One's a two-time PGA Section Teacher of the Year, and co-author of my book. I'm the other.

---

In a sentence or two, Jack, what's your point? What are you trying to say?

A two-time instructor of the year and an intructor of the year comprise the entire facility.  Yet, you're trying to say the people who seek you out (and probably get put on a waiting list) have stigmatized you and your co-worker as a waste of their time.  Okay.

In a sentence or three..your generalization of the vast majority of club pro instructors being lousy perpetuates the stigma that club pros are lousy.  Being published and recognized doesn't make you correct...it just puts more eyes (and ears) on what you're saying.  What you're saying is hurting the instructors you have ZERO knowlege about.

1 hour ago, iacas said:

Do we dismiss presidential polls because they don't ask all or even the majority or even 5% of the population who they'll vote for?

Yes.  It happens all the time and pollsters are constantly seeking out ways to get a representative sample of the population.  That's where you're whiffing the ball.  You generalized about everyone based on experiences happening in your little world...and probably a bit of heresay.  Two hundred bad club professionals in Southern Florida (or pick a region) does not equate to all club professionals being bad.  

[iacas]

16 minutes ago, JustJack2016 said:

A two-time instructor of the year and an intructor of the year comprise the entire facility.  Yet, you're trying to say the people who seek you out (and probably get put on a waiting list) have stigmatized you and your co-worker as a waste of their time.  Okay.

Re-read it again. If you still don't get what I was saying there - that bad instructors lead to fewer lessons for good instructors due to the general idea that it's often a waste of time/money for what you get - then blame me for poorly communicating my idea if you need to, because what you just typed there is not what I am saying.

16 minutes ago, JustJack2016 said:

In a sentence or three..your generalization of the vast majority of club pro instructors being lousy perpetuates the stigma that club pros are lousy.

So?

16 minutes ago, JustJack2016 said:

Being published and recognized doesn't make you correct…

Never said it did.

16 minutes ago, JustJack2016 said:

it just puts more eyes (and ears) on what you're saying.  What you're saying is hurting the instructors you have ZERO knowlege about.

Untrue.

16 minutes ago, JustJack2016 said:

Yes.  It happens all the time and pollsters are constantly seeking out ways to get a representative sample of the population.  That's where you're whiffing the ball.  You generalized about everyone based on experiences happening in your little world...and probably a bit of heresay.

I've whiffed? My "little world" is a healthy chunk of golf instructors. I'm exposed to thousands, and like I said, I'm exposed more often to the better chunk because the instructors with whom I engage and discuss things are at least seeking to gain knowledge, discussing their trade, and so on.

And again, I've never claimed to have interacted with all or even the majority of instructors. People understand that, and give my opinion the weight they feel it deserves. Whatever that amount is.

16 minutes ago, JustJack2016 said:

Two hundred bad club professionals in Southern Florida (or pick a region) does not equate to all club professionals being bad.  

It's an extrapolation. You're the only one who doesn't seem to understand that.

I appreciate that you want to stand up for golf instructors… but I disagree. I think most are bad at what they do, and I disagree that me saying that while spending a healthy chunk of time to change that is "bad for golf."

[JustJack2016]

19 minutes ago, Hatchman said:

Probably more than that as I read into it.  This discussion on Club Pros abilities not their certifications morphed into a personal challenge by a 6 decade, partially completed 12 stepper, who likes to try and shock people.  Old game.  The obvious target IMO was the earned tag Golf Digest America's Young Teachers.  Once you achieve some success others become troubled.

Actually...he sought me out.  Before a couple of days ago, I never heard of him.  Look back.  All I'm saying is there's a lot of bashing without any merit or specifics.  Even the student I referenced was ME.  

We all could probably be in some sort of 12-step program.  I ramble, you make assumptions (BTW, you're 0 fer six in the above quote...keep guessing), some people drink, some do drugs, blah blah blah...

[Kalnoky]

I've been working from home w/ the flu last 3 days. I've been watching Golf Channel in the background. I watched hundreds of swings just checking for the stuff I've been learning (e.g., extension, swing plane, shoulder turn, leg drive, posture, etc.) and man I'm lucky if I can get a good look at one (1) of those things per swing, that's how fast everything happens. Now if I consider an average hacker with a really inconsistent swing, i.e., a swing that's bad in a different way each time, there is no chance an instructor can fix that in 1,2, or even 3 x 45 minute lessons.

It's just a hard game and a lot of folks don't have the patience. I give my dad credit for never even trying - he knows and openly admits he does not have the patience for it.

Edited December 16, 2016 by Kalnoky

[Phil McGleno]

@JustJack2016-I am still not sure what your point is or why you are arguing.

I also encourage you to visit other parts of the site.

4 minutes ago, JustJack2016 said:

Actually...he sought me out.  Before a couple of days ago, I never heard of him.  Look back.  All I'm saying is there's a lot of bashing without any merit or specifics.  Even the student I referenced was ME.

@iacas has plenty of merit and specifics.-And how did he seek you out?

But really-Unbunch the old pantaloons and visit other parts of the site.

[JustJack2016]

9 minutes ago, Phil McGleno said:

 

@iacas has plenty of merit and specifics.-And how did he seek you out?

I stated my opinion and he chimed in on my opinion.  I didn't come here seeking him out.  I never heard of him.

[Phil McGleno]

@JustJack2016-That is not seeking you out. It is a forum for discussion.

Like I said-Check out other parts of the site. Lots of great stuff here if you take a second to look around.

[Wanzo]

2 hours ago, iacas said:

In a sentence or two, Jack, what's your point? What are you trying to say?

I'm following this thread trying to keep an open mind but this is all I keep thinking. 

[Hategolf]

It looks like Jack says..hey stop throwing your colleagues under the bus, it's bad juju ...and  Iacas is saying...why? It's true, and students should be able to say it. 

Jack says... further more, its sounds like you are imposing...Iacas says...I'm just saying cause I know.

Round and around we go. 

Opinions are like you know what...and you know the rest.  

I think is fair to take it as far as it is dully noted..further than that stirs the pot. 

I win!...haha.

Its freaking raining in southern CA...where am i going to practice my swing?  Last time I did it in my living room I chipped the corner of the hallway wall..shit. and the garage is full of crap. 

 

[JustJack2016]

1 hour ago, Phil McGleno said:

@JustJack2016-That is not seeking you out. It is a forum for discussion.

Like I said-Check out other parts of the site. Lots of great stuff here if you take a second to look around.

That was in reference to someone saying that my replies were simply a result of jealous retaliation due to his accomplishments and quick rise to fame.  Like I said, I never heard of him, didn't know (and really still don't know all of his accolades), and my opinion was posted before I looked at his info.  Just read my opening comment.  I didn't identify good (or bad) instructors/methods/techniques...just the fact that there are other variables in the equation.  Thanks for opening my eyes to the fact there are multiple threads on this site!

[mvmac]

So to sum up @JustJack2016 is arguing for the sake of arguing and doesn't care about the views of experts in the field. Jack, next time you want golf instruction, take some lessons from your local PGA pro. You can't say you weren't warned when he tells you to lighten your grip so you can release it to hit that power draw.

 

[JustJack2016]

53 minutes ago, Hategolf said:

It looks like Jack says..hey stop throwing your colleagues under the bus, it's bad juju ...and  Iacas is saying...why? It's true, and students should be able to say it. 

Sooooooooooo close.  Stop throwing your colleagues under the bus when you don't know the cause of the instructor/student disconnect.  Quarter stop...quarter stop...half stop.

27 minutes ago, mvmac said:

So to sum up @JustJack2016 is arguing for the sake of arguing and doesn't care about the views of experts in the field. Jack, next time you want golf instruction, take some lessons from your local PGA pro. You can't say you weren't warned when he tells you to lighten your grip so you can release it to hit that power draw.

I'm continuing this because I care.  Some are good...some are bad...and the ratio (real or imagined) is not the issue.  If a person KNOWS the source of the problem, by all means...let it be known.  There are A LOT of factors involved in instruction...particularly in golf.  If you don't know...well, there are those among us who have the opinion to call out the instructor because it's their fault.  I have a different opinion.

The next time I want golf lessons, I will go to my local club pro for instruction.  I will also provide him with feedback when the time is right.  If everything clicks, you'll see my name in the top 125.

[mvmac]

30 minutes ago, JustJack2016 said:

Stop throwing your colleagues under the bus when you don't know the cause of the instructor/student disconnect.

If a group of doctors were recommending their patients drink 10 Cokes a day and a doctor who actually knows something about health called them out, is that throwing them under the bus?

The disconnect is obvious, if a golfer is told to do something that's unnatural and just plain wrong, it's going to be tough to improve.

9 minutes ago, JustJack2016 said:

There are A LOT of factors involved in instruction...particularly in golf.  If you don't know...well, there are those among us who have the opinion to call out the instructor because it's their fault.  

I agree and the student's work ethic and skill definitely plays a part but golfers would have a much better chance if most instructors knew the basics of ball flight and golf swing knowledge. 

[Hatchman]

55 minutes ago, JustJack2016 said:

The next time I want golf lessons, I will go to my local club pro for instruction.  I will also provide him with feedback when the time is right.  If everything clicks, you'll see my name in the top 125.

Sorry, was visiting other areas.  Jack, your a funny guy, I think.  I'll keep an eye out for you.  I'm out.

[JustJack2016]

19 minutes ago, mvmac said:

The disconnect is obvious, if a golfer is told to do something that's unnatural and just plain wrong, it's going to be tough to improve.

Maybe you should start a new thread outling all of the characteristics of a "natural" golf swing.  Evertime I heard someone say, "the kid's a natural", it was quickly followed by eight years of lessons to prepare him/her for college.

"Naturally", you wouldn't pair a kid like that with any hack.  Junior has the $1,000 per hour natural talent.

At that level, sometimes there is success and sometimes the kid isn't willing to work hard enough...after all, they bypassed the bad instructors.

[saevel25]

1 hour ago, JustJack2016 said:

Maybe you should start a new thread outling all of the characteristics of a "natural" golf swing.  

Doing these really well

Introducing Five Simple Keys® - Swing Thoughts - The Sand Trap .com

 

[JonMA1]

Sorry in advance for the wall of words, but....

I've had my share of disagreements with @iacas regarding how he defines a "bad" instructor. But when it comes down to it, the man knows more about golf instruction than I ever will. 

My first instructor was a PGA club pro. When we met for our first lesson, he changed my grip, had me bend at my hips and told me not curve my back. He then explained how to restrict my hips during the backswing so as to "create more coil". I was so excited to finally learn some tips from a pro!

At the end of this first lesson he says to me "So let's make a schedule for your lessons". When I told him the next lesson would have to wait until I had the money set aside, any enthusiasm on his part came to an abrupt and obvious stop. It didn't really click at the time. I busted my ass trying to make these changes work. I practiced every night with my new grip, posture and hip restriction. I'd hit some good shots and bad ones. The good shots gave promise that he knew what he was doing. 

Two or three subsequent lessons consisted of me hitting balls at an indoor ranges, him pacing around for an hour texting on his cell phone, the occasional "that shot sounded good" comment from him, some useful short game instruction and a mention of the swing plane - which I questioned but never understood his brief explanation of it.

The last session consisted of tops and shanks which yielded no advice from him. He'd simply given up. I realized this was not a good match and I never scheduled another.

The point is, it took a long time to even question whether the problem might lie outside my inability to learn. He was a PGA pro after all. 

Reading the posts of others over the years, it's become apparent that this level of instruction is not uncommon. While that doesn't make poor results automatically the fault of the instructor, an awareness that bad instruction does exist is essential for those new to the game, IMO. I have no idea whether there are more bad pros than good, but I'm convinced there are an abundance of bad ones.

I've never read Erik, Dave or Mike state that theirs is the only good instruction out there. They even offer advice on how to find a good teacher.