Swing Speed Increase With Less Effort

[Hacker James]

A while back, I was following a certain instructor who was advocating what he termed "effortless arms". In general what he was referring to was depending on hip turn in a rotational swing combined with again what he termed "loose wrists" resulting in a swing with the feeling of absolutely no tension in the arms and a snapping of the wrists in the down swing. There is more to it than that, and I may may be over characterizing, but what intrigues me is his demonstration using an inexpensive swing speed monitor about the size of a large cell phone, he showed a swing speed  increase from 85 to 113 mph.  To me, this sounds like too high of an expectation. I do agree however, that tension in general is a robber of distance, I say tension as opposed to resistance, there is a difference.
 

[iacas]

Sounds bogus.

And I think I know what video you are talking about.

Tension is not good, but you use a lot of muscles to generate swing speed. Very few of them are truly passive, particularly those actually holding onto the club or swinging around in proximity to the club.

[Buckeyebowman]

I have to agree. And I would ask who is this miraculous golfer that had a nearly 30 mph clubhead speed increase? The guy doing the promotion? And you can have pics of LCD numbers all you want, doesn't mean they came from that swing unless they have a "no cut" way of doing it.

Yes, muscle tension can be a speed robber, but you have to have some or you'd fall in a heap, or be unable to swing at all! The idea is to keep it at the minimum where you don't lose control of the club.

Edited January 25, 2017 by Buckeyebowman

[Hacker James]

and perhaps this thread should be merged with the following one "Power Sources.." even though it was addressed  here, but extrapolated in much better and detailed explanation in the other. Makes no difference, at least people get a chance to exchange views rather than just tossing it out as "Bogus".  As for myself, I neither favor nor disallow, I merely brought the subject forward for comment.

Edited January 25, 2017 by Hacker James

[Hacker James]

1 hour ago, Buckeyebowman said:

I have to agree. And I would ask who is this miraculous golfer that had a nearly 30 mph clubhead speed increase? The guy doing the promotion? And you can have pics of LCD numbers all you want, doesn't mean they came from that swing unless they have a "no cut" way of doing it.

 

and here is the "no cut" video (I presume). Also, let me be clear, I am not saying I agree or disagree with the content, My purpose was to simply say that I found the results to be surprizing and perhaps not easily obtained. People can make their own decisions as to the validity of the video or instruction.

 

[Piz]

I watched this a few months back and found it useful.  In particular, as a warming/loosening up exercise.  It isn't all that dissimilar to Earnest Jones'  "Swing the club head" philosophy.

[Rainmaker]

In my own wanderings/learnings . .I have come to believe..in no small part because it's what my instructor tells me..that "effortless" golf swing is at best a feel and at worst a myth.  Most of us who struggle with "Powerless Effort" are putting that effort in the wrong places and at the wrong times.  

In my teacher's model of the swing . .we're using our body, the ground and whatever else only for just one thing . .to set up a very forceful whipping rotation of the hands/wrists and forearms.  "However hard you can do that is how far you can hit the ball" my teacher says of this whipping rotation movement.  I've seen nothing to suggest he's wrong . . . 

[iacas]

10 minutes ago, Rainmaker said:

In my own wanderings/learnings . .I have come to believe..in no small part because it's what my instructor tells me..that "effortless" golf swing is at best a feel and at worst a myth.  Most of us who struggle with "Powerless Effort" are putting that effort in the wrong places and at the wrong times.

Precisely. It's feel that works for some people. Some people expend their energy in the wrong place and at the wrong time in the golf swing. Those swings feel like they take up more effort because they're expending so much energy in compensating.

Golf swings like Ernie's look effortless because he's smooth and balanced. That's it. He's putting more energy into that system than a guy who swings at 90 MPH, and that energy comes through the effort of his muscles.

To think otherwise is bogus, as I said above.

10 minutes ago, Rainmaker said:

In my teacher's model of the swing . .we're using our body, the ground and whatever else only for just one thing . .to set up a very forceful whipping rotation of the hands/wrists and forearms.  "However hard you can do that is how far you can hit the ball" my teacher says of this whipping rotation movement.  I've seen nothing to suggest he's wrong . . . 

Of course, you're still using your arms quite a bit - they're not just acting like passive ropes attached to the club and whipping through because of your "body" and "the ground." They're actively doing work, expending effort, etc.

[Hacker James]

12 hours ago, Piz said:

I watched this a few months back and found it useful.  In particular, as a warming/loosening up exercise.  It isn't all that dissimilar to Earnest Jones'  "Swing the club head" philosophy.

There are a few instructors who put forth instruction to assuage their beliefs,however misplaced they may or may not be.  A couple of examples: Jim Waldron (Arm Swing Allusion); Quinton Martin (description of collar bone or something or other moving only a couple of inches), and others.

Most of these are "feel based" and can be effective for "some". Their commonality seems to be they are all emphasizing torso rotation.  In reality, it is the combination of factors, working in correct sequence and synchronization, with all the parts and pieces working together. As to what the percentages are, I really can not say as that is beyond my expertise (for lack of a better word). I do not think any of these guys sincerely believe that the arms are not being used, but in the way they attempt to explain ,  leaves much to be desired.

[JonMA1]

8 hours ago, iacas said:

Precisely. It's feel that works for some people. Some people expend their energy in the wrong place and at the wrong time in the golf swing. Those swings feel like they take up more effort because they're expending so much energy in compensating.\

This makes sense to me. I'm trying to understand it because I want to know how to react when a round starts to become noticeably harder.

When my full swing is going well, "easy" is the best way I can describe the effort put forth. Not only with my arms, but my entire body. I can finish a round where every solid strike results in what i consider to be average or above average distances. And it doesn't feel like I've spent three hours at the gym afterwards.

In contrast, when I'm not hitting my distances, I start putting more effort into the swing in an attempt to muscle the club to hit those distances. All that extra effort is wasted because I'm fighting against myself... against poor mechanics. The golfing equivalent of trying to swim against a current.

At the end of these rounds I feel beat up. 

I'd love to develop the ability to get back to a base point of better mechanics before the wheels start to fall off during a round. I wonder if slowing down and shortening the swing for a few shots might help. Something along the lines of an L to L drill. Then, once I feel more in control, continue by increasing the speed and lengthening the swing. I don't know.... just a thought.

[Good Ash]

His swing speed is definitely impressive for the effort that it looks like he puts into it.  Wouldn't the extra speed generated from such a wristy swing cause many more misses though?  It seems like the club face would go from open to close really fast and cause your shots to be really sporadic, especially for a high handicapper.

[Hacker James]

3 hours ago, Good Ash said:

His swing speed is definitely impressive for the effort that it looks like he puts into it.  Wouldn't the extra speed generated from such a wristy swing cause many more misses though?  It seems like the club face would go from open to close really fast and cause your shots to be really sporadic, especially for a high handicapper.

could be.  I have fooled around with it and got some good results though. Not to excess however. Adding the wrists as a lever is fine, as long as you do not over do it and keep everything in sequence and tempo.

[Hacker James]

I take the input from various instructors as a grain of salt and try not to wander too far off from what seems to work best for me. I appreciate some of the tips and may even experiment for myself, but there is only one instructor that I have full confidence in and he is usually not on any of the forums with any regularity, but is always willing to respond to questions directly on his own website. I've never seen him make disparaging remarks against any other instructors, but he more or less allows his own work speak for itself. That being said, he will also attribute things he has learned throughout the years and pays credit to those mentors he learned from. 

Edited January 26, 2017 by Hacker James

[Lihu]

18 hours ago, Good Ash said:

His swing speed is definitely impressive for the effort that it looks like he puts into it.  Wouldn't the extra speed generated from such a wristy swing cause many more misses though?  It seems like the club face would go from open to close really fast and cause your shots to be really sporadic, especially for a high handicapper.

I agree, but I'm sure it depends upon the individual.

You might be able to ask Paul yourself?

Paul Wilson has posted on this site before. He seems like a very likeable person, and if his students get good results that's great.

However, I prefer a more analytical approach to learning the swing, though. That's where this site is an invaluable tool to learn from.

[Hacker James]

2 hours ago, Lihu said:

I agree, but I'm sure it depends upon the individual.

You might be able to ask Paul yourself?

Paul Wilson has posted on this site before. He seems like a very likeable person, and if his students get good results that's great.

However, I prefer a more analytical approach to learning the swing, though. That's where this site is an invaluable tool to learn from.

As I mentioned previously (but not by name), I did follow him for a short while and got a few things out of it. He did have several concepts that I find problematic, dual axis and several others. I am sure his students get good results from his instruction, but he is not the one I referred to in my above post. Analytical approach is one that many like yourself find helpful and I will agree that this site is an excellent place to find it and you would be hard pressed to find instructors more knowledgeable in that regard. Yes, I too have found some of the data and analytics most helpful for understanding. More important to me though is the ability of the instructor to relate and of course that will vary between instructors and students. 

[gregsandiego]

On 1/24/2017 at 9:11 AM, Hacker James said:

A while back, I was following a certain instructor who was advocating what he termed "effortless arms". In general what he was referring to was depending on hip turn in a rotational swing combined with again what he termed "loose wrists" resulting in a swing with the feeling of absolutely no tension in the arms and a snapping of the wrists in the down swing. There is more to it than that, and I may may be over characterizing, but what intrigues me is his demonstration using an inexpensive swing speed monitor about the size of a large cell phone, he showed a swing speed  increase from 85 to 113 mph.  To me, this sounds like too high of an expectation. I do agree however, that tension in general is a robber of distance, I say tension as opposed to resistance, there is a difference.
 

My better shots feel like the arms are along for the ride as opposed to guiding them along a controlled path. My instructor says the feel is almost like you're throwing the club down the fairway and letting go. Oddly, 

Unfortunately I know what this good shot feels like, but can't recreate it on demand. 

 

[Hacker James]

@gregsandiego More info is in the referenced book "Swing Machine Golf". The link above brought about considerable discussion on it. 

[Hacker James]

3 hours ago, gregsandiego said:

My better shots feel like the arms are along for the ride as opposed to guiding them along a controlled path. My instructor says the feel is almost like you're throwing the club down the fairway and letting go. Oddly, 

Unfortunately I know what this good shot feels like, but can't recreate it on demand. 

 

Several instructors have made that analogy. I think perhaps Shawn Clements for one.