Modernized Rules Discussion: Areas of the Course

[Divot Master]

4 minutes ago, dsc123 said:

I would prefer it to be a 2 stroke penalty, but I agree as far as the pace of play is concerned.  That's what I do when I don't want to drive back. 

It will be about a 1.5 shot penalty, the drop plus a crapshoot whether you will have stance, swing, and line for a good next shot. Having actual red markers will better control where people can drop from.

[Dick Kusleika]

What if the flagstick rule were to say "once the flagstick is touched, it is considered attended and must be continued to be attended or removed until the stroke is complete."? That seems like it would solve the futzing with the flag issue. And it wouldn't interfere with the situation where two players are on the front of the green with a back pin. They could still come up without risking a penalty.

[iacas]

45 minutes ago, Fourputt said:

That's exactly what you aren't allowed to do.  If the flagstick is damaged so that it always leans, you will have the option of leaving it in or having it removed.  I doubt (and hope) that they won't allow you to do anything that makes it more favorable than just straight up and down.

I think there are a number of problems with this rule. Yet more reasons why I think they should ditch this proposed rule and leave this one more like it is now. Take the flagstick out when you're putting.

45 minutes ago, Fourputt said:

On some of the courses around here the constant wind causes the flagstick to wallow out the socket that the flagstick plugs into, so that it will never stand straight up.  In that case it's just the luck of the draw.  If the flag is leaning toward me, I pull it.  If it's leaning away, then I may or may not leave it in depending on the situation.

The point I made is that in adjusting it to try to get it straight, you can also find that it won't stay straight and then it just happens to wind up leaning away from you.

42 minutes ago, jsgolfer said:

For the unplayable in the sand? Would still have the option to take a one-penalty stroke for an unplayable lie and drop in the sand?

Yeah.

42 minutes ago, jsgolfer said:

The flagstick one is interesting to me.  I think lots of players would take it out, as I see so many players take it out when they are putting from off the green.  But as those here on TST know, leaving it in is an advantage.  And one that I would take advantage of, if given the opportunity to leave it in on the green.  But I could see this taking longer time, if there are those that want it in and those that want it out.

Yeah one of the many problems I have with that rule.

Plus different courses with different flagsticks will play differently. There's another difference. Though the Rules say you can't have a flagstick that dampens or sticks, all flagsticks "dampen" somewhat. People could begin manufacturing "dampener" flagsticks, or thinner flagsticks, or whatever to affect putting.

The more I think about this the more I dislike this rule.

13 minutes ago, Braivo said:

All tree lined areas should be red hazards, no doubt about it. By far the biggest waste of time I have seen on courses is looking for balls in the woods / tree line. This will basically just legalize what most players do anyway - see ball enter woods, can't find ball, drop where it entered woods, take penalty stroke, continue. 

I wanted to disagree, strongly even, but… since I can play the ball normally as it is now OR take it out (and backward) with a penalty stroke, just like chipping out… maybe it's okay.

This would really only affect those times when you hit it into trees and CAN'T chip out. So I'm back to disagreeing a little.

[dsc123]

12 minutes ago, Braivo said:

The problem with making a two stroke penalty is there is now more incentive to prolong the search. One stroke is the same as "punching out" without all of the time invested to do so. I suppose you could argue it is less of a penalty than actually having to risk punching out, but no less penal than a water hazard. Meh. 

I guess this comes into play in two scenarios: 1) found ball in trees; 2) lost ball in trees.  If you find your ball and you have a clean out, you'll probably still punch it out, because you can make it run further.  If you find it and you don't have a clean out, you'll take the drop because its advantageous.  But if the ball is lost, you're lying 2 from somewhere up the fairway instead of lying 2 on the tee. 

Edited March 1, 2017 by dsc123

[iacas]

2 minutes ago, Dick Kusleika said:

What if the flagstick rule were to say "once the flagstick is touched, it is considered attended and must be continued to be attended or removed until the stroke is complete."? That seems like it would solve the futzing with the flag issue. And it wouldn't interfere with the situation where two players are on the front of the green with a back pin. They could still come up without risking a penalty.

Interesting. But the first thing that springs to mind is that I could touch the flagstick and invalidate the rights of others to leave it in the hole, no? Or is it only for your stroke, if you or your caddie or side touches it?

[dsc123]

9 minutes ago, Divot Master said:

It will be about a 1.5 shot penalty, the drop plus a crapshoot whether you will have stance, swing, and line for a good next shot. Having actual red markers will better control where people can drop from.

1.5 shots compared to a good tee shot.  If you rarely hit a good tee shot, its less. 

I have a group of friends that get together twice a year to golf and they're terrible.   I spot them between 9 and 25 shots.  The first time I lost it was because I let them play the trees like a lateral and it changed everything.  Gone were the 1-2 holes where they pump 2-3 tee shots into the woods.  They just try to bomb it.  If it goes into the woods, they're basically lying even with me (net).     

[Divot Master]

4 minutes ago, dsc123 said:

1.5 shots compared to a good tee shot.  If you rarely hit a good tee shot, its less. 

I have a group of friends that get together twice a year to golf and they're terrible.   I spot them between 9 and 25 shots.  The first time I lost it was because I let them play the trees like a lateral and it changed everything.  Gone were the 1-2 holes where they pump 2-3 tee shots into the woods.  They just try to bomb it.  If it goes into the woods, they're basically lying even with me (net).     

That is the problem with the unofficial rule, players take their drop all the way out to the edge of the fairway and are guaranteed an opportunity for a good third shot. With actual red stakes along the tree trunk line and legal drops only a clublength in, overhanging limbs, long grass, etc. mean your third shot will often be no more than a punch back to the fairway.

[iacas]

2 minutes ago, Divot Master said:

That is the problem with the unofficial rule, players take their drop all the way out to the edge of the fairway and are guaranteed an opportunity for a good third shot. With actual red stakes along the tree trunk line and legal drops only a clublength in, overhanging limbs, long grass, etc. mean your third shot will often be no more than a punch back to the fairway.

And… they won't take it out sideways, but where it crossed the line, which will be "back" to some extent, too.

[dsc123]

1 minute ago, Divot Master said:

That is the problem with the unofficial rule, players take their drop all the way out to the edge of the fairway and are guaranteed an opportunity for a good third shot. With actual red stakes along the tree trunk line and legal drops only a clublength in, overhanging limbs, long grass, etc. mean your third shot will often be no more than a punch back to the fairway.

That's a good point.  It wouldn't always be the case that you're in a bad spot, but with a properly drawn area, it should be true most of the time.  

[iacas]

The weird thing about this one is that if you hit your ball near a bunch of trees, you may not know from the tee if they've marked it as a penalty area or not.

I think you can still play a provisional in case it's lost, and if you discover red lines when you get up there, you can abandon the provisional.

[Dick Kusleika]

20 minutes ago, iacas said:

Interesting. But the first thing that springs to mind is that I could touch the flagstick and invalidate the rights of others to leave it in the hole, no? Or is it only for your stroke, if you or your caddie or side touches it?

Yes, that's what I had in mind: Anybody from any side could make the effort to attend and remove the advantage for everyone. The only time you could put the flag back in an unattended state is if the next shot (from whomever) is from off the green. If the next shot is from on the green, you (or someone) has to continue to attend or the flagstick has to be removed. So under this rule, you would not have a "right" to leave the flag in, only the option if everyone agrees - agreement being not making the effort to attend - and yes this is starting to feel like agreement to waive the rules which is terrible.

[iacas]

Just now, Dick Kusleika said:

Yes, that's what I had in mind: Anybody from any side could make the effort to attend and remove the advantage for everyone. The only time you could put the flag back in an unattended state is if the next shot (from whomever) is from off the green. If the next shot is from on the green, you (or someone) has to continue to attend or the flagstick has to be removed. So under this rule, you would not have a "right" to leave the flag in, only the option if everyone agrees - agreement being not making the effort to attend - and yes this is starting to feel like agreement to waive the rules which is terrible.

I don't see that working out at all. Depending on who you played with, the round could have very different feelings… "You dick, you touched the flagstick, I wanted it left in!" Etc.

---

I just heard Thomas Pagel say on Golf Channel something about how it's just going to save so much time. They just said “this won’t matter much on the PGA Tour, they have caddies to attend the flagstick.”

They seem to be giving no weight whatsoever to the big advantage putting with the flagstick in gives you. Smart PGA Tour players will just say say “don’t attend the flagstick.”

I hate hate hate this proposed rule.

[Dick Kusleika]

13 minutes ago, iacas said:

"You dick, you touched the flagstick, I wanted it left in!" Etc.

They don't have to change the rules for me to have that round with that guy. :)

[Braivo]

27 minutes ago, iacas said:

The weird thing about this one is that if you hit your ball near a bunch of trees, you may not know from the tee if they've marked it as a penalty area or not.

I think you can still play a provisional in case it's lost, and if you discover red lines when you get up there, you can abandon the provisional.

I hope the end goal of this is that all such areas are marked, or deemed to be marked, as red hazards. 

[iacas]

7 minutes ago, Braivo said:

I hope the end goal of this is that all such areas are marked, or deemed to be marked, as red hazards. 

That would be absolutely ridiculous, because there are trees from which you can easily play from and trees from which play (or even finding your ball) is nearly impossible.

All such what areas? Areas with trees? Ridiculous.

Look at the area in their video:

That's very different than, say, a few tall pine trees with some pine straw or sandy grass under them like you find in Pinehurst or whatever.

[Fourputt]

36 minutes ago, iacas said:

The weird thing about this one is that if you hit your ball near a bunch of trees, you may not know from the tee if they've marked it as a penalty area or not.

I think you can still play a provisional in case it's lost, and if you discover red lines when you get up there, you can abandon the provisional.

Won't they still use stakes as well to identify penalty areas, then lines to define the margin?  Most public courses only have stakes now, or at least they don't mark the lines regularly to keep them well defined.  Stakes would usually be visible from the tee or from wherever the shot is being taken.

[iacas]

1 minute ago, Fourputt said:

Won't they still use stakes as well to identify penalty areas, then lines to define the margin?  Most public courses only have stakes now, or at least they don't mark the lines regularly to keep them well defined.

Maybe.

The point I'm making with that is that before, really, only OB and water hazards were marked properly.

Now, ANY area can be marked, and you may not know what the status of the area is until you get near to it. Before, if it was water, you were pretty sure it was a water hazard.

Now, they could mark an area of tall rough as a penalty area if they wanted to.

I should get into the red stake manufacturing business.

[Braivo]

5 minutes ago, iacas said:

That would be absolutely ridiculous, because there are trees from which you can easily play from and trees from which play (or even finding your ball) is nearly impossible.

All such what areas? Areas with trees? Ridiculous.

Look at the area in their video:

That's very different than, say, a few tall pine trees with some pine straw or sandy grass under them like you find in Pinehurst or whatever.

Yes, that is what I was picturing when you made your comment about a provisional. I agree that trees "in play" are still in play. Also, this picture perfectly illustrates the type of area I see the most time being wasted in a recreational round. Dropping here will be a big gain IMO.