Hank Haney questions Bernhard Langer's Putting

[Vinsk]

8 minutes ago, iacas said:

You're wrong.

If players and several spectators went to a rules official and said a guy clearly anchored while making a stroke they would take that into consideration. The player doesn't just get to deny it and move on.

Anchoring can be seen with the naked eye. It's incorrect to say never. Dave was intentionally playing it close to the edge in all strokes.

Incorrect to say never, yes. But what it would take to CLEARLY see anchoring beyond any doubt isn't realistic with regards to a professional tournament. An opponent would have to be too close to the other to make a definite conclusion. A player's hand can literally be 1mm off his chest and be legal. That cannot be seen by the naked eye unless you're on top of the guy which will never happen due to obvious reasons.

[David in FL]

1 hour ago, iacas said:

Asked and answered several times already, with multiple reasons.

Ultimately the USGA wanted to ban the practice, not the equipment.

---

Here's a video @NCGolfer and I shot the other day before winning (and losing) our scramble…

 

Yeah.  I still have no idea why they were so insistent on banning only the practice, when it seems as if the equipment restriction would have been easier to manage.

[Vinsk]

1 minute ago, David in FL said:

Yeah.  I still have no idea why they were so insistent on banning only the practice, when it seems as if the equipment restriction would have been easier to manage.

It's just difficult to control with height differences I think. I think the whole anchoring style is silly which is why I'm so stubborn about it. That's on me 100%. But I don't agree that it's visible (in a normal round of golf) to see if anchoring is happening. If a player wears a loose shirt...he can actually press in all the way to just shy of body contact and it would certainly look like anchoring. Impossible to confirm. Period. The only outcome would be asking the player, and I don't believe that is 100% accurate as they may simply not even realized they did it. I'm done with this and stand by that.

[iacas]

17 minutes ago, David in FL said:

Yeah.  I still have no idea why they were so insistent on banning only the practice, when it seems as if the equipment restriction would have been easier to manage.

Asked and answered many times.

22 minutes ago, Vinsk said:

Incorrect to say never, yes. But what it would take to CLEARLY see anchoring beyond any doubt isn't realistic with regards to a professional tournament. An opponent would have to be too close to the other to make a definite conclusion. A player's hand can literally be 1mm off his chest and be legal. That cannot be seen by the naked eye unless you're on top of the guy which will never happen due to obvious reasons.

Yeah, I don't know what to tell you. I disagree. You're not even accounting for someone who anchors clearly. It's possible to do that.

The benefit of anchoring isn't really even present if you're holding something against yourself only enough to barely dent the epidermis.

[David in FL]

36 minutes ago, iacas said:

Asked and answered many times.

Never mind.

 

[mvmac]

Watching the Senior Open and it looks to me like Langer is closer to doing what @NCGolfer was doing in the 3rd stroke/setup. It's kind of a grey area where it doesn't look like he's "for sure" anchoring but the handle and left forearm are also very close to or touching his sweater. 

1 hour ago, David in FL said:

Yeah.  I still have no idea why they were so insistent on banning only the practice, when it seems as if the equipment restriction would have been easier to manage.

Banning the practice is just an easier way to do it. If they made the maximum length 35" you could still find ways to anchor. It would also be unfair to tall guys that need an over length putter, golfers that like to side saddle and golfers that like/need to stand taller over their putter.

[MuniGrit]

What is the official definition of anchoring? Pressed against the body? Touching the baggy shirt isn't anchoring.

[mvmac]

2 minutes ago, MuniGrit said:

What is the official definition of anchoring? Pressed against the body? Touching the baggy shirt isn't anchoring.

[David in FL]

2 minutes ago, mvmac said:

 

Banning the practice is just an easier way to do it. If they made the maximum length 35" you could still find ways to anchor. It would also be unfair to tall guys that need an over length putter and golfers that like to side saddle.

Yeah.  There'd still need to be a ban on anchoring to go with a length limitation.  But given that there are already length limitations on all other clubs, it doesn't strike me as unreasonable to apply one to putters as well.  Not 35", but 40" or so would probably get it done.  

 

 

[Vinsk]

Well like @iacas said these guys will be off the tour and the whole issue may die, or be pretty rare. I'm not sure how many players on the PGA Tour use the anchoring style anyway. As for us regular guys...I'm sure it would be handled as seen fit should it arise. Actually, I wish they would just ban hosels....lol.

[iacas]

7 hours ago, David in FL said:

Yeah.  There'd still need to be a ban on anchoring to go with a length limitation.  But given that there are already length limitations on all other clubs, it doesn't strike me as unreasonable to apply one to putters as well.  Not 35", but 40" or so would probably get it done.

Mike answered that too. Simply put… they didn't want to ban long putters. Just anchoring. At any length, certain people or groups of people could still anchor, until you make it so short, that then tall people are bending way over to putt.

Like I said… asked and answered many times.

[Dave Saari]

I know I'm very late to this thread, and don't have anything useful to add. BUT, I was watching the Boeing Tournament today, and I have to say it still bothers me to see so many of the guys with the long putters. I know they are not going to give them up (because it's what works for them), and I know they say they're not anchoring, and they probably aren't. But it just LOOKS LIKE THEY ARE, especially Langer. So I just have that nagging doubt that maybe every once in a while they make a putt in violation of the no-anchoring rule.

Again, I have nothing useful to add, but for me this diminishes my enjoyment of watching the PGA Tour Champions. I guess I'll just have to stop watching, or look away when a long-putter guy is taking his stroke. Eventually the guys with the long putters will retire, but maybe I won't live long enough to see it.

Phooey.

[Vinsk]

Yeah...just a poor rule. The only way it can result in a penalty is by self claiming. Shirt hangs an inch off the chest...thumb presses in 1/2"....anchoring? No, but sure looks that way...impossible to prove so they just hope a player (McCarron or Langer) would call it. They won't. I don't care if people think those guys are the living Christ....they'll never say 'oh damn...I touched my chest on that putt." No they won't. End of story. Dumb rule with no merit. They can anchor all they want intentional or not....one will never know.

Edited August 27, 2017 by Vinsk

[iacas]

1 hour ago, Vinsk said:

Yeah...just a poor rule.

I don't think so.

1 hour ago, Vinsk said:

The only way it can result in a penalty is by self claiming.

Not true.

1 hour ago, Vinsk said:

They won't.

So they're cheaters and liars, now?

1 hour ago, Vinsk said:

I don't care if people think those guys are the living Christ....they'll never say 'oh damn...I touched my chest on that putt." No they won't. End of story. Dumb rule with no merit. They can anchor all they want intentional or not....one will never know.

Bull.

[Vinsk]

Who knows? You have no idea what Langer nor McCarron are thinking or doing. Happens all the time when an otherwise respected person is found to be otherwise. I'm not saying they are deliberately lying. But I could video myself and let you use whatever camera you want and you would not be able to tell whether I'm anchoring or not. You think a person's word is all that is needed to confirm if anchoring is taking place. If you had stopped Lexi walking to the next hole and asked her if she just cheated you think she would've said yes? Video clearly showed Lexi mis-marked. Video clearly showed Tiger didn't place his ball as close as possible on his drop. Video for all practical purposes cannot determine if a player carelessly touched his chest with his hand. Penalties occur from carelessness more than deliberate cheating. 

[iacas]

3 minutes ago, Vinsk said:

Who knows?

Not you, either.

Innocent until proven guilty. It's golf. It's a game of honor.

3 minutes ago, Vinsk said:

You have no idea what Langer nor McCarron are thinking or doing.

That's not true. I have plenty of ideas. I can see them. I have the USGA saying they're okay with it. I have their word that they're not.

You're the one lacking evidence. You have only your suspicions, really.

2 minutes ago, Vinsk said:

I'm not saying they are deliberately lying. But I could video myself and let you use whatever camera you want and you would not be able to tell whether I'm anchoring or not.

That's beside the point.

2 minutes ago, Vinsk said:

You think a person's word is all that is needed to confirm if anchoring is taking place.

I never said that.

2 minutes ago, Vinsk said:

If you had stopped Lexi walking to the next hole and asked her if she just cheated you think she would've said yes?

Got nothing to do with this.

2 minutes ago, Vinsk said:

Video clearly showed Tiger didn't place his ball as close as possible on his drop. Video for all practical purposes cannot determine if a player carelessly touched his chest with his hand. Penalties occur from carelessness more than deliberate cheating. 

:sigh:

This isn't going anywhere @Vinsk. You have no evidence of Bernhard or Scott anchoring. Everyone closer to it than you says what they are doing is legal. Their reputation and integrity has never been questioned legitimately.

[Vinsk]

I know Erik. Im saying evidence was presented and even you 'thought he was cheating'. It wasn't after extensive video review that your mind was changed. It was merely BL saying 'I'm not cheating.' So my Lexi analogy was that she would've said no as well...but video showed the mistake and a penalty was given. Had the video been inconclusive, she wouldn't have been penalized. Video can show obvious non-anchoring, but it simply can't prove if contact is actually there while wearing clothes. If they inadvertently anchor (tension, nerves, Mis-hap) video cannot confirm anchoring and will always be deemed inconclusive. And if the player had no conscious thought of anchoring (like Lexi's careless marking) then it will pass without penalty. Lexi's reputation and integrity wasn't questioned either. I thought she handled it poorly afterwards however.

 

i need to shut up.

Edited August 27, 2017 by Vinsk

[iacas]

3 minutes ago, Vinsk said:

It was merely BL saying 'I'm not cheating.'

That's not correct.

3 minutes ago, Vinsk said:

So my Lexi analogy was that she would've said no as well... but video showed the mistake and a penalty was given.

You're assuming things, and then building off of those assumptions. But when the assumptions are wrong, everything you've built on top of those assumptions crumbles too.

3 minutes ago, Vinsk said:

Lexi's reputation and integrity wasn't questioned either.

It was by some. She seems to have a small history of doing that mis-marking/mis-replacing thing.