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Groove Sharpener


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2 hours ago, TropicalSandTrap said:

So if you don't aggressively sharpen, then your grooves are likely to conform. So no issue. 

So let's stop derailing this conversation about some red herring and focus on the topic

I am sure that someone who has done the process before would be way better at it then you would just buying some cheap ball sharpener off the internet. 

15 minutes ago, TropicalSandTrap said:

The rule is that grooves cannot go past a certain size. So if you use a sharpener and don't exceed the size, then it's not a violation. So just don't overdo it and you should be fine. He rules do not say that you cannot remove material or that you cannot sharpen your grooves.  The people hijaking this thread obviously have a different idea of why a person would us a groove sharpener 

It's meeting the stringent specifications set forth by the USGA. There is more to it than just depth and width. Geometry matters as well.

Matt Dougherty, P.E.
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1 minute ago, TropicalSandTrap said:

Is there a device available to measure from it is conforming?  I have a few extra wedges I wouldn't mind one practicing on before fixing the ones I actually use. 

So you have no clue how to measure but you are quite sure you are conforming?  Time to pack it in on this one boss.

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8 minutes ago, TropicalSandTrap said:

Phil stop making up rules. You said that removing material will make a club non conforming. PLease find the rule that says that. You can't because there isn't one. You just made it up.  You make up rules.

No, he didn't. He asked you a few times now to illustrate in the form of @jamo's picture how removal of material would not break the rules.

His point, I think, is that grooves can become wider (and shallower) per the second image in @jamo's image, and that's perfectly legal because it's a result of normal wear and tear.

But as soon as you remove ANY material from that second groove (below), the club is no longer conforming.

1 hour ago, jamo said:

FullSizeRender.jpg

think that's what he's saying. I'm pretty sure of it. @Phil McGleno can correct me if I'm wrong.

8 minutes ago, TropicalSandTrap said:

anyway, the groove sharpeners appear to have different sizes so if you are just using he small one and it adds a little depth where it was otherwise  down, that is totally fine. A person doesn't have to use a groove sharpener to aggressively change the dimensions of their grooves.

If you add depth, the groove volume will still be increased because the corners will be duller, and the widths wider.

And that's fine if it happens through wear and tear, but as soon as you do something explicit, it has to conform entirely - to all the measurements to which new clubs are subject to.

8 minutes ago, TropicalSandTrap said:

Also, I am way more concerned about damaging the club in term of ripping off the chrome or whatever than I am about whether somebody like Phil is making up rules and calling people cheater even though he clearly doesn't know the rules. 

Chill with the "making up the rules" crap already.


I'm going to second Phil's request: please draw what you think your 20-year-old grooves look like now after being used and worn down, and please illustrate how the removal of any material in the groove will yield a completely conforming club.

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2 minutes ago, TropicalSandTrap said:

Is there a device available to measure from it is conforming?  I have a few extra wedges I wouldn't mind one practicing on before fixing the ones I actually use. 

Short answer is no. There's a complete process about how they do it for competitions, it's apparently very tedious. At their testing facility they use a ridiculously expensive machine.

4 minutes ago, TropicalSandTrap said:

If it is worn down then it is not at the maximum depth. So cutting it deeper wouldn't necessarily keep it illegal

How exactly do you picture the clubface wearing? Your grooves don't get shallower, the face caves into them from the sides. Basically the edges get rounder. The depth of the groove in relation to the clubface doesn't change at all, and if you are cutting the depth further to restore the original shape of the grooves, you are essentially just making your grooves bigger by volume and therefore illegal. See my post above about how groove depth is measured.

Bill

“By three methods we may learn wisdom: First, by reflection, which is noblest; Second, by imitation, which is easiest; and third by experience, which is the bitterest.” - Confucius

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So,  my constructive question is this.  Let's say my grooves on my pitching wedge have dull edges and are thus wider.  The groove volume is greater thus allowing more space for water and grass.

Out of the rough is performance affected?

My personal experience says no.

The ultimate grip on a dry race car tire is a slick.  Maximum surface contact.  However in rain race cars use rain tires which are grooved.

Grass,  debris,  water,  the grooves on a golf club do the same.  My personal opinion though is that sharper groove edges help spin in reality.  Truth or fic ion?

If you take a knife blade and rub its edge into a golf ball it bites. A smooth piece of metal slides...

 

Edited by Jack Watson
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Here is the above picture. I would disagree that #3 is necessarily what would happen with a sharpener. Why would it have to widen?  Why wouldn't it just get deeper to again look like picture #1?  It looks like the groove sharpeners have different sized heads so that you don't have to use one that will widen the club.  In the picture it looks like the person is assuming using a wide tool that will widen the grooves  

and again, I'm not talking about aggressively reconfiguring the grooves. Just a little maintenance to clean them out a bit.  And removing some material is not illegal  

 

 

IMG_3434.PNG

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Just now, TropicalSandTrap said:

Here is the above picture. I would disagree that #3 is necessarily what would happen with a sharpener. Why would it have to widen?  

The groove edges get worn down. That means material is lost. When you sharpen you are changing the geometry on already worn down grooves. To sharpen you are further removing material. That is how sharpening works. On knives you are removing material from the knife. 

 

Matt Dougherty, P.E.
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What's in My Bag
Driver; :pxg: 0311 Gen 5,  3-Wood: 
:titleist: 917h3 ,  Hybrid:  :titleist: 915 2-Hybrid,  Irons: Sub 70 TAIII Fordged
Wedges: :edel: (52, 56, 60),  Putter: :edel:,  Ball: :snell: MTB,  Shoe: :true_linkswear:,  Rangfinder: :leupold:
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4 minutes ago, TropicalSandTrap said:

Here is the above picture. I would disagree that #3 is necessarily what would happen with a sharpener. Why would it have to widen?  Why wouldn't it just get deeper to again look like picture #1?  It looks like the groove sharpeners have different sized heads so that you don't have to use one that will widen the club.  In the picture it looks like the person is assuming using a wide tool that will widen the grooves  

and again, I'm not talking about aggressively reconfiguring the grooves. Just a little maintenance to clean them out a bit.  And removing some material is not illegal  

 

 

IMG_3434.PNG

If you're talking cleaning use a brush for petes sake!  Again cease posting!  

Edited by Jack Watson
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2 minutes ago, TropicalSandTrap said:

Here is the above picture. I would disagree that #3 is necessarily what would happen with a sharpener. Why would it have to widen?  Why wouldn't it just get deeper to again look like picture #1?

Even if it just gets deeper it is also wider because the corners are worn down so you are increasing the volume again-And the grooves are wider now too.

OK to do if natural. Not OK to do if you are the one doing it with a tool not playing golf.

Either way you are likely breaking the rules regarding corner radius, volume, or groove spacing.

2 minutes ago, TropicalSandTrap said:

It looks like the groove sharpeners have different sized heads so that you don't have to use one that will widen the club.

The grooves are already widened by use.

2 minutes ago, TropicalSandTrap said:

and again, I'm not talking about aggressively reconfiguring the grooves. Just a little maintenance to clean them out a bit.  And removing some material is not illegal.

It is not the removal of the material per se that makes them illegal. It is the change you make not through normal use that changes the radius, groove spacing, or volume.

2 minutes ago, Jack Watson said:

If you're talking cleaning use a brush for petes sake!

Yes just use a brush. You are allowed to use a brush to clean your clubs. It does not change the corner radius, grooves or volume.

"The expert golfer has maximum time to make minimal compensations. The poorer player has minimal time to make maximum compensations." - And no, I'm not Mac. Please do not PM me about it. I just think he is a crazy MFer and we could all use a little more crazy sometimes.

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Here is my artistic rendering. If the sharpener isn't wider, then it just goes deeper,  so it wouldn't be illegal. 

IMG_3435.JPG

4 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

The groove edges get worn down. That means material is lost. When you sharpen you are changing the geometry on already worn down grooves. To sharpen you are further removing material. That is how sharpening works. On knives you are removing material from the knife. 

 

Right. You remove material, like sharpening a knife. But you don't necessarily make it wider or nonconforming. 

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2 minutes ago, TropicalSandTrap said:

Here is my artistic rendering. If the sharpener isn't wider, then it just goes deeper,  so it wouldn't be illegal. 

IMG_3435.JPG

I'm done.  THE SHARPENER MANUFACTURER SAID NO GUARANTY OF CONFORMITY!

Edited by Jack Watson
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The master clubfitter at my club said the groove depth is measured from the flat part of the clubface.-So your picture does not represent reality.

Oh and your grooves are wider in the picture you just posted.-Non-conforming.

"The expert golfer has maximum time to make minimal compensations. The poorer player has minimal time to make maximum compensations." - And no, I'm not Mac. Please do not PM me about it. I just think he is a crazy MFer and we could all use a little more crazy sometimes.

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(edited)
3 minutes ago, Jack Watson said:

I'm done.  THE SHARPENER MANUFACTURER SAID NO GUARANTY OF CONFORMITY!

THen go away. You haven't added anything to the conversation anyway. You won't be missed. 

 

THanks for the feedback Phil

Edited by TropicalSandTrap
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1 minute ago, TropicalSandTrap said:

THen go away. You haven't added anything to the conversation anyway. You won't be missed. 

 

THanks for the feedback Phil

Don't default to personal attacks because you are wrong.  Enough already.

 

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5 minutes ago, TropicalSandTrap said:

Here is the above picture. I would disagree that #3 is necessarily what would happen with a sharpener. Why would it have to widen?  Why wouldn't it just get deeper to again look like picture #1?  It looks like the groove sharpeners have different sized heads so that you don't have to use one that will widen the club.  In the picture it looks like the person is assuming using a wide tool that will widen the grooves  

@saevel25 mentioned it, but you're starting with pic #2, not #1. There is no way to remove material to get #2 to be #1 again because the edges have caved in. What a groove sharpener does at this point is either make #2 deeper (illegal) or simply clean the groove of debris, which isn't sharpening at all. Removing material from #2, whether it is by making it deeper or wider, will likely result in a non-conforming club if the club was manufactured at the legal limit to begin with.

9 minutes ago, TropicalSandTrap said:

And removing some material is not illegal  

It is if the club was manufactured at the legal limit. Removing any material at that point makes the club illegal.

4 minutes ago, TropicalSandTrap said:

Here is my artistic rendering. If the sharpener isn't wider, then it just goes deeper,  so it wouldn't be illegal. 

IMG_3435.JPG

Your grooves don't lose their original depth from wear. They get rounded out at the edges.

 

Bill

“By three methods we may learn wisdom: First, by reflection, which is noblest; Second, by imitation, which is easiest; and third by experience, which is the bitterest.” - Confucius

My Swing Thread

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7 minutes ago, Phil McGleno said:

The master clubfitter at my club said the groove depth is measured from the flat part of the clubface.-So your picture does not represent reality.

Oh and your grooves are wider in the picture you just posted.-Non-conforming.

The grooves in third picture are not wider than in the first picture. I traced both of them from the same original. It is just shallower so it appears wider. (Maybe my tracing is bad?)

so as long as the grooves are within the conforming width and depth, then it's fine. The removing of material doesn't make it inherently wrong. 

 

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2 minutes ago, TropicalSandTrap said:

The grooves in third picture are not wider than in the first picture. I traced both of them from the same original. It is just shallower so it appears wider. (Maybe my tracing is bad?)

Real grooves will get a little wider through normal wear because the corners will soften-So they get wider.

2 minutes ago, TropicalSandTrap said:

so as long as the grooves are within the conforming width and depth, then it's fine. The removing of material doesn't make it inherently wrong.

Volume, radii, width, depth, etc. ALL the measurements matter. There is more to it than width and depth.

-And depth is measured from the high point on the face, because wedges are supposed to be flat. No concave or convex nature.

8 minutes ago, billchao said:

Your grooves don't lose their original depth from wear. They get rounded out at the edges.

They can actually-these are some famous pictures - but the master club guy said they measure depth from the high point of the clubface not on a micro level where the center of the face is dented in a little.

5846586798_f470393fd4.jpg

That club would be measured for depth at the high toe area.-Otherwise the clubface is not flat which violates a different rule.

Either way the ignorance of @TropicalSandTrap is coming to light.

"The expert golfer has maximum time to make minimal compensations. The poorer player has minimal time to make maximum compensations." - And no, I'm not Mac. Please do not PM me about it. I just think he is a crazy MFer and we could all use a little more crazy sometimes.

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