Old grip video De La Torre

[JonMA1]

2 hours ago, Jack Watson said:

 I don't believe that certain mechanics equal certain skill.  

Every PGA player I've ever seen video of executes the 5 Simple Keys. Certain mechanics do equal certain skill, IMO. For amateurs, improving even slightly with those keys equal almost often lead to scoring better, IMO. That doesn't mean that some aren't exceptional at compensating, but on average, better mechanics equal better golf, IMO.

2 hours ago, Jack Watson said:

Imo understanding the swing and being able to produce it are two separate issues.

Agree 100%. That's not to say that understanding the swing ever held anyone back. Trying to understand it is certainly better than sticking you head in the sand, IMO.

You start a topic like this and get no responses. So you add another post. Some members respond that they don't believe the information has much value. You reply that most of us in today's world are incapable of understanding. C'mon man. Do you realize how that reads?

Older methods of golf instruction seem to help you. That's great. You know what, I may be the only one on this forum who has been helped by Jim Flick's "feel the club head" swing thought. But... 1) it isn't a cure all, and 2) I don't try to convince others that they need to think less about mechanics and more about feel.

I have trouble learning mechanics. Maybe it's a learning disability, a physical limitation, or something else I have no control over. The idea that it's out of my control is convenient and makes me feel better about myself because the alternative is that I'm too #!^$ing lazy to put in the discipline, effort and sacrifice. Or I'm too closed-minded and too argumentative to accept my thinking may be flawed.

You know what I don't do?  Argue with someone who does this as a profession and is passionate about quality instruction. Nor would I share the opinion that his method of teaching isn't as good as the older instruction - at least without some fact-based information to back it up.

I also don't insult his students by referring to their swing thread as "OCD" after they've dropped to the low single-digits as a result of that instruction.

 

[Phil McGleno]

55 minutes ago, JonMA1 said:

You know what I don't do?  Argue with someone who does this as a profession and is passionate about quality instruction. Nor would I share the opinion that his method of teaching isn't as good as the older instruction - at least without some fact-based information to back it up.

I also don't insult his students by referring to their swing thread as "OCD" after they've dropped to the low single-digits as a result of that instruction.

@JonMA1 just called @Jack Watson an asshole without actually calling him an asshole.

I think Jack is a troll or a shill-Or both.

[iacas]

7 hours ago, billchao said:

I feel like this whole swing the clubhead thing is just oversimplifying the swing while taking advantage of golfers' desires for a quick and easy fix. It sounds good but you're not really getting anything of substance in the end. Sugar pill.

The more I hear, the less substance I think they've got.

5 hours ago, Jack Watson said:

Ok,  but I am able to break 80 on a good day.  You can attack me if you wish but I have hit a lot of greens with my swing.

With a 9.4 index, you're not breaking 80 very often. Not on a very long course, anyway.

And no, that's not an attack. Just a statement of fact.

Your swing has flaws that are preventing you from hitting MORE GIR and shooting even LOWER scores.

5 hours ago, Jack Watson said:

What makes golf difficult is the weight and momentum in the clubhead and how it acts on us imo.  The club as it is moved at speed has a lot of force.

That's not what makes golf difficult. Give people a gripped shaft to swing and they'll still make some horrible ridiculously bad swings at the ball.

What makes golf difficult is that at the end of a 70" lever the clubhead is moving some 80-110 MPH, and we must strike a ball within about 1/4" and with a path and face within very, very narrow windows in terms of degrees.

What makes golf difficult is that the motion is confounding to many: you swing around yourself in an arc (and ideally slightly downward at impact) to make the ball go UP and straight.

What makes golf difficult is that on a par four the eventual target is all of 4.25", yet it's 450 yards away, and in between you are trees, bushes, tall grass, sand… wind, uneven lies, etc.

5 hours ago, Jack Watson said:

It's like my old pro.  He was very into the loading of the shaft and he had a pretty particular set of things he was looking for with that.  He was all about taking matters into his own hands.

What's that got to do with anything?

5 hours ago, Jack Watson said:

Simply swinging is about doing less imo. Less moves more about as MDT says leaving the club alone as much as one can as it swings.  Obviously it's not an answer for everyone-nothing in golf is.

This kind of stuff makes no sense at all. None.

In a good "swing the clubhead" golf swing, the same body parts move in the same ways and the same amounts as in every other good golf swing.

5 hours ago, Jack Watson said:

Also he's in the hall of fame.

Whoopty doo. Seriously, these lists (and I'm saying this as I'm on a list) mean nothing. There's no objective way to measure the quality of a golf instructor. If there was, everyone would agree Hank Haney was crap.

5 hours ago, Jack Watson said:

This is older stuff that most people in today's world will not be able to understand.  In the modern world data/analysis is king.   People are unable to quiet their minds.

Riiiiiiiight, that's it.

5 hours ago, Jack Watson said:

I don't have a problem with that,  but it's ignorant to refer to MDT as sugar pills.

How about "lacking substance?"

4 hours ago, billchao said:

Because the modern world has the tools. You're delusional if you think pros and teachers of yesteryear would have forgone highspeed video, radar, and 3D motion technology had they been available. They used the tools they had available to them at the time with the understanding of the golf swing they were able to achieve with those tools. Some of these "facts" that they have taught have been proven to be incorrect because of modern technology.

Yup. Good instructors are always seeking out tools that can help them learn more, know more, teach better, etc. Doesn't mean they use them all, all the time, with every student.

4 hours ago, billchao said:

Nobody has attacked you. @iacas has simply stated the part of your swing that's holding you back. Your refusal to change that and your philosophy about the swing in general is keeping you from hitting more greens and being an even better golfer than you are.

No attack, right. Just that Mike and I pointed out what is keeping you from striking the ball better in your golf swing, and rather than acknowledge that and work on that single, simple, specific piece… you made an excuse about how you don't want to go down a rabbit hole and bailed.

It's not a rabbit hole. It's one thing.

But hey, you're content to shoot 85. That's fine… but then… stop talking about instruction.

3 hours ago, Jack Watson said:

I think what makes my silly opinions different from yours @billchao is that I don't believe that certain mechanics equal certain skill.

Good mechanics are a skill, absolutely.

If you sway back, fail to get your weight forward, flip at the ball, swing left, and have no clubface control, you're going to lose to someone who has learned to do some of those things better than you.

The movements people go through are the mechanics.

Mechanics are how we apply the golf club properly to the back of the golf ball.

3 hours ago, Jack Watson said:

In the grip video mdt expresses his view that for some people changing their grip will ruin their game.  They have learned compensations in place that are pretty much set in stone.

I would say those aren't very good golfers to begin with.

3 hours ago, Jack Watson said:

Its like my swing.

Oh this should be good…?

3 hours ago, Jack Watson said:

I haven't been able to play much this year,  but when I go out I have a potential to get back into the seventies.

And I have the potential to shoot in the 60s when I go out and play, which isn't all that often.

And Jim Furyk could take six months off, play a PGA Tour course, and possibly shoot in the 60s. He could give you six a side and still beat you.

3 hours ago, Jack Watson said:

If I set out to make changes I might as well resolve that I am going to need a LOT of practice ingraining the changes and playing will not be fun because I will miss both ways often until the changes are made permanent over time.

You've had lousy instruction, then.

My players make changes all the time. Sometimes before a tournament (that they win or play well in). Hell, majors have been won by a player who found one thing that helps them, and they play with that swing thought the whole time.

It's complete bullshit to say "instruction = playing will not be fun, will miss both ways, etc." There are a ton of lessons I give where:

• contact just gets cleaner and cleaner the more you do the piece properly.
• ball flight gets higher (or lower, as appropriate) the more you do the piece properly.
• the ball curves less and less the more you do the piece properly.
• you hit the ball further and further the more you do the piece properly.
• you control better and narrow your shot cones more and more the more you do the piece properly.

Plenty of lessons.

3 hours ago, Jack Watson said:

Scores will be bad.

No.

3 hours ago, Jack Watson said:

Minimum one year commitment with a LOT of practice and results are not guaranteed.

No.

And the results can be guaranteed, because it's just physics, geometry, etc.

3 hours ago, Jack Watson said:

I know this because of the amount of work it took me to be able to break 80.

With, apparently, some pretty shitty instruction.

3 hours ago, Jack Watson said:

It's exactly like the grip video.  I am just like that grip guy who said he was not going to practice.  Some things are better left alone.

If you're content to shoot the 85s you shoot, by all means, leave it alone.

But you're not a great golfer. And you shouldn't be talking about instruction with those who aim to be better than you (relatively speaking - some people have a higher ceiling than other people).

3 hours ago, Jack Watson said:

They had feel and ballflight primarily.  They produced the swings primarily on those two things and those older era golfers were pretty good from Bobby Jones to Johnny Miller.

Players today are better than players in the Bobby Jones era. Hell, Francis Ouimet topped a few shots in winning the U.S. Open in 1913.

Their tools were primitive compared to what we have now.

Teachers are - in general - far better (still not where I'd like them to be), and players are better, too.

3 hours ago, Jack Watson said:

Imo understanding the swing and being able to produce it are two separate issues.

You've yet to demonstrate the ability to do either very well.

And that's not an attack. From my perspective, again, just a statement of fact. I'm a better golfer than you, and a better instructor. @mvmac is a better golfer than you, and a better instructor should he choose to help you (as he did, per your request) for free.

55 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

The thing is, the clubhead does NOT act on us.  It is inert, the only forces it can exert are as a reaction to what we the player cause it to do.  We exert force on the club, the club moves in response to those forces.

It does, yes, but after we act on it. So I get what you're saying, and yes… we're the ones who ultimately caused it.

55 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

If you want to simplify, to "do less", the key is to make the club move in the right path and plane from the start, so you don't have to fight the momentum you've created to get the clubhead to the ball correctly

Oh noes, that sounds like mechanics!

8 minutes ago, JonMA1 said:

Every PGA player I've ever seen video of executes the 5 Simple Keys. Certain mechanics do equal certain skill, IMO. For amateurs, improving even slightly with those keys equal almost often lead to scoring better, IMO. That doesn't mean that some aren't exceptional at compensating, but on average, better mechanics equal better golf, IMO.

Absolutely.

[iacas]

@Jack Watson, here's an example.

My daughter, @NatalieB, has been working on two issues lately. She broke 80 for the first time in competition recently (while working on these two things). They're relatively common things.

Thing 1
She'd roll her forearms while turning her torso too far, then because she had to hinge her wrists and elbow late, they'd run on too long and get across the line with her right elbow a bit around her and a bit over-flexed. If she didn't compensate in the downswing, the left arm would be out too far in the downswing, and she'd hit pulls and cuts with a loss of distance, too.

Thing 2
To attempt to shallow out the club a little (from the above Thing 1), she'd "jump" prematurely rather than letting her hips slide forward two inches, properly creating secondary axis tilt. Also, this often led to a little flip, and a stalled pivot on the follow-through, with her arms rolling over each other quickly. When she didn't compensate (by "jumping" just the right amount at just the right time), she'd hit shots a little fat or thin, she'd hit the ball too high, and she'd pull the ball more often than she should otherwise.

The fixes:

Thing 1: Stand the shaft up with earlier hinging, feel that the arms lift from there. This limits the torso's rotation (she was getting to like 140° and could barely see the golf ball, with the rest of the elbow stuff accompanying…) and helps the shaft (and sweet spot) get on a better plane earlier for less compensations (and thus wasted energy).

Thing 2: Bump the hips forward on the downswing. Squish the bug. Chest points to the sky early in the follow-through. (All the same mechanics, with different "feels" and/or "pictures").

The better she did both things, the better she played golf. There was no "two way miss." There was no full year of mechanically oriented dedicated work and effort. She gained 10-15 yards throughout the bag, hits the ball more solidly, and controls the flight better.

But hey, maybe my 14-year-old daughter is just way, way better at making changes to her golf swing than you are? Or maybe, just maybe, she got good instruction and plays some pretty kick-butt golf as a result…?

[Jack Watson]

@iacas

Your daughter has had the benefit of Quality instruction from a young age.

[iacas]

1 hour ago, Jack Watson said:

Your daughter has had the benefit of Quality instruction from a young age.

So what? She had two issues - mechanical issues - and played good golf even while still actively working on fixing them (they're still issues, though less now than two or three weeks ago).

And nothing's stopping you from getting quality instruction now.

[Vinsk]

47 minutes ago, iacas said:

And nothing's stopping you from getting quality instruction now.

Unfortunately, @Jack Watson is what's stopping him.

[Jack Watson]