Overlooking a breach of rules in match play?

[DaveP043]

1 minute ago, iacas said:

And it's within the rules to overlook a rules breach by an opponent in match play.

I've done it.

No argument at all.  For a change, I completely agree with @Groucho Valentine, if its unintentional, and the player isn't aware, and there was no advantage gained. I'd probably ignore it too.  I can remember playing a fourball match, and watch one of my opponents stand behind his partner on the line of play.  I told him that he wasn't allowed to stand there, but only after we'd started the next hole.  There was no penalty to be applied, and he never did that again, he learned something new without suffering any consequences, and with no hard feelings.  

1 minute ago, rehmwa said:

Would your advantage be to note the breach on a hole where it doesn't matter for the purpose of hopefully calling it later on a hole where it does?

You're thinking that maybe your opponent isn't aware of the rule he's broken, and you want to "catch" him repeating the infraction when it matters most?  I'd say that's poor sportsmanship.  If the player has already lost the hole, I'd say its best to inform him of his infraction immediately, with the hopes that he doesn't repeat it when it could change the outcome of a hole.  

[Rulesman]

3 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

I'd say its best to inform him of his infraction immediately, with the hopes that he doesn't repeat it when it could change the outcome of a hole.  

If you tell him before either of you have teed off at the next hole but agree to ignore it, you may both have a problem with rule 1-3 (DQ) 

[DaveP043]

Just now, Rulesman said:

If you tell him before either of you have teed off at the next hole but agree to ignore it, you may both have a problem with rule 1-3 (DQ) 

If the result of the hole was a loss of the hole for him, without the penalty, and the result of the penalty was a loss of the hole for him, I can't see an issue.  If he won the hole, and I was willing to overlook his breach of the rules, I think you're right.  So the proper advice is (correct me if I'm wrong),  if you're willing to overlook a breach on a hole, wait until you've started the next hole to say anything about it.  

How would this change if the breach was a nonconforming club, or too many clubs?  The penalty for those infractions are applied somewhat differently, "deducting one hole for each hole on which the breach occurred" (max 2 holes), as opposed to merely losing the hole that you're playing.  

[iacas]

1 hour ago, rehmwa said:

Would your advantage be to note the breach on a hole where it doesn't matter for the purpose of hopefully calling it later on a hole where it does?

Huh?

No.

I played against a guy once who brushed the sand and a pine cone away with his backswing in a bunker… then left the ball in the rough short of the green. I was putting for a birdie, and he was chipping for a bogey. He didn't chip in, and so he conceded the hole.

I didn't call the penalty on him. I couldn't be bothered to, and it was inconsequential IMO to the outcome on the hole. I didn't "hope" he'd do it again later.

I get to decide to not call a penalty on my opponent in match play. The only person in the field that could hurt is me.

51 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

No argument at all.  For a change, I completely agree with @Groucho Valentine, if its unintentional, and the player isn't aware, and there was no advantage gained. I'd probably ignore it too.

You'd have called the bunker guy above? He gained an advantage. The pine cone wasn't in the way of his downswing.

I didn't see the point.

51 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

You're thinking that maybe your opponent isn't aware of the rule he's broken, and you want to "catch" him repeating the infraction when it matters most? I'd say that's poor sportsmanship.

You're not responding to me, but… I don't think that's poor sportsmanship. It's his responsibility to know and follow the rules. It's not the coolest thing in the world. I'm not saying that either. I just don't think expecting your opponent to know the rules is necessarily poor sportsmanship either.

I wasn't exhibiting poor sportsmanship in overlooking the pine cone thing. I didn't hope he'd do that again later, but if he had, and I'd have called him on it, it would have been his fault entirely. It's not my job, in a competition, to tell everyone everything they might not know about the rules. Certainly not a stranger who may or may not react well to hearing about it after losing a hole.

Now, I say all that having done similar things: a guy standing on his daughter's line for the first four holes (but not saying anything to her, etc.) will get a "hey, just so you know, you can't do that… someone else might call you on that in the future" from me. But this is after I know the parent a little, and the parent isn't actually the competitor, nor are they playing match play, etc. etc. etc.

And I'll inform the kids of other college teams of things too, even though they're competing against my college kids.

But there could be plenty of reasons to overlook and not mention an infraction in a match play scenario, without making you a "bad sportsman."

31 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

If he won the hole, and I was willing to overlook his breach of the rules, I think you're right.

He isn't.

A match play competitor can overlook a rules infraction. The only person he's harming is himself.

For 1-3 to apply they'd have to actually agree to ignore a rule, not have a one-sided decision to overlook the infraction of the other.

On 7/31/2017 at 11:50 AM, Rulesman said:

A sees B breach a rule. Decides to take not action but mentions it to B. B says 'thank'. Agreement. 

IMO that's not agreement. It's close, and if you want to be "safe" mention it after you've teed off on the next hole, but unless the guy says "thanks, I'll let you do that too" or something then "Oh, I didn't know, thanks" isn't agreement (just barely) in my opinion. You're only (potentially) hurting yourself in overlooking it.

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If my opponent had said "hey, can I move this pine cone, even though I'd normally not be allowed" and I said "yeah, sure, I'll let you just this one time…" then that is agreement, and we should be DQed.

[rehmwa]

1 hour ago, DaveP043 said:

You're thinking that maybe your opponent isn't aware of the rule he's broken, and you want to "catch" him repeating the infraction when it matters most?  I'd say that's poor sportsmanship

I agree, it's why I asked. 

But it seems if it's an infraction, and one doesn't inform the other guy (with or without penalty), then that no good either.  If you want to be true to the rules, then you tell someone so they learn, but they also should take the penalty regardless of if it affects the outcome of the hole or not.  That would be consistent with the attitudes of so many here.  (I think Eric explained it by noting in match play he doesn't have to protect the "field" in that format.  I suspect the answer is much different in a stroke play tournament - so the courteous thing to do later would be to let them know after the next hole starts - "hey, FYI - you know that you just.....")

 

 

I guess, in the end and in match play only, if you have the right to ignore a breach you see, then just ignore it and don't worry about saying anything.  It's done, you chose your action.  anything else is extra

Edited September 26, 2017 by rehmwa

[Rulesman]

1 hour ago, iacas said:

He isn't.

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I am

What I actually wrote was "If you tell him before either of you have teed off at the next hole but agree to ignore it, you may both have a problem with rule 1-3 (DQ) "

[iacas]

46 minutes ago, Rulesman said:

I am

Yeah. I see that now.

I sometimes quote a few posts and then respond to them, forgetting what the quoted post was quoting originally (i.e. I quoted and responded to what Dave wrote, but forgot the specifics of what he'd quoted that you wrote).

But to be clear, you can overlook a rules breach by an opponent even if you lose the hole. Just don't actually agree to letting the match stand that way (unless it would not have affected the score on the hole).

Match play is weird here. The Committee has an interest in promoting GOLF as the game being played, not just allowing people to agree to halve the holes they want to skip for fear of losing golf balls or being stuck behind a slow group or something.

But anyway, without actual agreement, 1-3 doesn't really come into play. You can overlook a breach. It only affects you.

1-3 is in place because if you decide to play a sport that isn't golf (by agreeing to modify/ignore rules), the Committee and the rest of the tournament IS affected.