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saevel25

Overlooking a breach of rules in match play?

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From @iacas response to my post here.

I am still trying to figure out what a good example would be of waiving a breach of rules in match play? Would it have to be someone just overlooking a rule violation with the other player not knowing they broke the rule?

Example,

Player B sees Player A ground their club in a bunker. For some reason Player B doesn't bring up the situation. Player B is allowed to do this.

Would this be an example?

Also, once Player B says something like this, "I saw you ground the club, but don't take a penalty." If player A agrees, that would be a violation of 1-3 correct? They both then have agreed to waive the rules.

To me it seems like this only can happen if one player notice another player violate the rules and just not decide to have it enforced.

I am just trying to grasp this possible situation.

 

 

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We can apply common sense and sportsmanship in alot of these cases. In terms of the junior match, she justs walks to the next tee. Period.

Stuff like grounding the club in a bunker is different. But if its just something like the club head bobbing as the player gets ready to hit and just barley touches the top of the sand without the player noticing it, i probably let that go and dont mention anything. Theres no advantage gained or deliberate attempt to break a rule. 

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Just now, Groucho Valentine said:

We can apply common sense and sportsmanship in alot of these cases. In terms of the junior match, she justs walks to the next tee. Period.

Don't make this about the other thread. That is off-topic here. I am looking at strict examples under the guidance from the USGA rules.

 

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Just now, saevel25 said:

Don't make this about the other thread. That is off-topic here. I am looking at strict examples under the guidance from the USGA rules.

 

Maybe you should remove the link to the other thread then....

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I'm thinking more along the lines of an iffy drop.  Maybe the ball rolls a bit too far, or ends up slightly closer to the hole.  From 180 yards out, a few inches or a foot might not be worth the effort to correct or even discuss the situation.  I could also see ignoring someone tapping down a ball mark close to their ball in the fairway.

Stuff like that...

 

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1 hour ago, saevel25 said:

From @iacas response to my post here.

I am still trying to figure out what a good example would be of waiving a breach of rules in match play? Would it have to be someone just overlooking a rule violation with the other player not knowing they broke the rule?

Example,

Player B sees Player A ground their club in a bunker. For some reason Player B doesn't bring up the situation. Player B is allowed to do this.

Would this be an example?

Also, once Player B says something like this, "I saw you ground the club, but don't take a penalty." If player A agrees, that would be a violation of 1-3 correct? They both then have agreed to waive the rules.

To me it seems like this only can happen if one player notice another player violate the rules and just not decide to have it enforced.

 

 

 

You have it right.

A sees B breach a rule. Decides to ignore it and says nothing. No agreement.

A sees B breach a rule. Decides to take not action but mentions it to B. B says 'thank'. Agreement. 

B breaches a rule. A does not see it. B mentions it to A as they are leaving the green. A says 'don't worry, ignore it'. B says 'OK'. Agreement.

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2 hours ago, David in FL said:

I'm thinking more along the lines of an iffy drop.  Maybe the ball rolls a bit too far, or ends up slightly closer to the hole.  From 180 yards out, a few inches or a foot might not be worth the effort to correct or even discuss the situation.  I could also see ignoring someone tapping down a ball mark close to their ball in the fairway.

Stuff like that...

Or if it doesn't matter to the outcome of a hole.

For example, you're on the green in 2 with a 20 foot putt and your opponent is in the sand in 3. He chunks the shot and it doesn't get out of the bunker. He slams his club in the bunker. I personally wouldn't call the penalty there because he's at beast going to make a 5, and I'm going to make a 4. He'll probably concede after not holing out from the bunker, so what's the point in calling the penalty?

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Just now, DeadMan said:

Or if it doesn't matter to the outcome of a hole.

For example, you're on the green in 2 with a 20 foot putt and your opponent is in the sand in 3. He chunks the shot and it doesn't get out of the bunker. He slams his club in the bunker. I personally wouldn't call the penalty there because he's at beast going to make a 5, and I'm going to make a 4. He'll probably concede after not holing out from the bunker, so what's the point in calling the penalty?

Agree.

I have to admit, we're a little OT here though.  I misunderstood the OP.  @saevel25 was asking when does ignoring a breach become agreeing to waive the rules.

I think  @Rulesman  gave a good example....

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4 hours ago, saevel25 said:

Don't make this about the other thread. That is off-topic here. I am looking at strict examples under the guidance from the USGA rules.

 

It's pretty simple.  You see your opponent accidentally bump his ball and it moves an inch.  You could call it and make him replace it for one stroke.  You could let him play it as it lies, then call it and he loses the hole.  You could just ignore it and wait to say anything until you both hit from the next tee.  If you say anything to him before that and you agree to not apply the penalty, then you would in breach for agreeing to waive a rule of golf.  

I would most likely wait till until the next hole, then explain what I saw.  I prefer to be an educator rather than a referee.

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8 minutes ago, Fourputt said:

It's pretty simple.  You see your opponent accidentally bump his ball and it moves an inch.  You could call it and make him replace it for one stroke.  You could let him play it as it lies, then call it and he loses the hole.  You could just ignore it and wait to say anything until you both hit from the next tee.  If you say anything to him before that and you agree to not apply the penalty, then you would in breach for agreeing to waive a rule of golf.  

I would most likely wait till until the next hole, then explain what I saw.  I prefer to be an educator rather than a referee.

To me, you can't say anything to him until the tournament the round is over.

Lets say Player A sees Player B not move his ball maker back after you asked him to move it. Lets say he makes the putt to win the hole. As soon as you mention it, the penalty must be applied. A penalty for breach of rule 20-3 is "loss of hole". Lets say you mention it on the next hole. He then says, "Ok, I lose the previous hole then". You then say something like, "No its OK, I was just letting you know so you might not do it again." If the guy agrees to that, then you both just agreed to waive the penalty for not correctly replacing the golf ball.

I get, if the guy missed the putt to halve, so he lost the hole already. The outcome doesn't matter. If the outcome does matter, then a golfer should not speak of it at all if he wants to overlook a breach of the rules. In my opinion, any discussion of it that leads to the rule not being applied should be considered a violation of 1-3.

 

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28 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

To me, you can't say anything to him until the tournament the round is over.

I think the issue is making a timely claim.  If you wait until your opponent tees off on the next hole (or leaves the green on #18, etc...), then you can not make a claim and the issue is moot.  The result of the hole stands and any discussion about a breach is merely a discussion, not an agreement to waive a Rule.

"A claim is considered to have been made in a timely manner if, upon discovery of circumstances giving rise to a claim, the player makes his claim (i) before any player in the match plays from the next teeing ground, or (ii) in the case of the last hole of the match, before all players in the match leave the putting green, or (iii) when the circumstances giving rise to the claim are discovered after all the players in the match have left the putting green of the final hole, before the result of the match has been officially announced."

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5 minutes ago, bkuehn1952 said:

I think the issue is making a timely claim.  If you wait until your opponent tees off on the next hole (or leaves the green on #18, etc...), then you can not make a claim and the issue is moot.  

I read the rules the same way.  The following Decision seems to reinforce that:

Quote

2-5/12

 Imposition of Penalty by Referee After Any Player in Match Has Played from Next Tee

Q.In match play, may a referee penalize a player for a breach of a Rule at a hole if he does not become aware of the breach until someone in the match has played from the next teeing ground?

A.Yes, unless the facts giving rise to the penalty were known to the opponent.

If the opponent is aware of the infraction, and does not make a timely claim, even a Referee cannot impose the penalty.  Once they tee off on the next hole, the result of that hole cannot be changed, so the players are not agreeing to waive a rule.  

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Further to the above. If they agree to the result of the hole being altered after they have started the next hole, they will be agreeing to alter the result of the match. To me that is a 1-3 offence.

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46 minutes ago, isaacbeast1787 said:

in my opinion you should overlock it it is more fun to win fair anyway

The entire purpose of rules are to make things fair... Someone breaching a rule could literally make it unfair. 

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1 hour ago, isaacbeast1787 said:

in my opinion you should overlock it it is more fun to win fair anyway

I agree with @klineka, playing in accordance with the rules, and expecting your opponent to do the same, is playing fair.

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23 hours ago, DaveP043 said:

I agree with @klineka, playing in accordance with the rules, and expecting your opponent to do the same, is playing fair.

And it's within the rules to overlook a rules breach by an opponent in match play.

I've done it.

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6 minutes ago, iacas said:

And it's within the rules to overlook a rules breach by an opponent in match play.

I've done it.

Would your advantage be to note the breach on a hole where it doesn't matter for the purpose of hopefully calling it later on a hole where it does?

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