Stubbornness on Short Game vs Long Game

[ChiTown]

1 hour ago, iacas said:

That's not a good method for determining where to spend your time. Many of those shots have little to no Separation Value®.

12.5% of a PGA Tour player's shots are tap-ins. Should they spend even 1.25% of their time practicing their tap-ins?

29 of 74 of my shots are putting. That's 39%. I almost never practice my putting.

I should practice my short game a little more (almost none also), but I spend most of my time on the full swing.

I'm not a hard sell guy, but you should really check out Lowest Score Wins, @ChiTown.

@iacas the data was collected for people shooting 85. So they’re not PGA players. In your case or the 74 shots you take, how many are “full swing”? In terms of statistical data for golf, you should really read “Every Shot Counts” if you haven’t already. 
 

I’d also like to know where you got your data on PGA 12.5% tap ins as I’d love to see it. I’ve only seen the data as success percentages based on distance from the cup. 

[iacas]

4 minutes ago, ChiTown said:

@iacas the data was collected for people shooting 85. So they’re not PGA players.

That doesn't matter.

4 minutes ago, ChiTown said:

In terms of statistical data for golf, you should really read “Every Shot Counts” if you haven’t already.

I think you should read Lowest Score Wins (since it's now really obvious you haven't already).

6 minutes ago, ChiTown said:

I’d also like to know where you got your data on PGA 12.5% tap ins as I’d love to see it. I’ve only seen the data as success percentages based on distance from the cup. 

I did it myself. They have about 9 tap-ins per round. That's about 12.5%.

You're pretty new here, but long story short… LSW came out a month after ESC and I've spoken on panels with Mark Broadie. We've consulted with college teams, Tour players, etc. on strategy, game planning, etc.

[ChiTown]

3 minutes ago, iacas said:

That doesn't matter. I think you should read Lowest Score Wins (since it's now really obvious you haven't already).

I did it myself. They have about 9 tap-ins per round. That's about 12.5%.

You're pretty new here, but long story short… LSW came out a month after ESC and I've spoken on panels with Mark Broadie. We've consulted with college teams, Tour players, etc. on strategy, game planning, etc.

This is interesting convo. So what is your opinion on where mid-handicap players should focus their time to improve score?  I’m guessing Approach Shots are probably the first area?  Roughly speaking what mix of approach shots would be full swing vs wedge work?

 

 

[StuM]

28 minutes ago, ChiTown said:

This is interesting convo. So what is your opinion on where mid-handicap players should focus their time to improve score?  I’m guessing Approach Shots are probably the first area?  Roughly speaking what mix of approach shots would be full swing vs wedge work?

 

 

I'll save @iacasa little time.  Check out the thread below.

 

 

 

[iacas]

7 hours ago, ChiTown said:

This is interesting convo. So what is your opinion on where mid-handicap players should focus their time to improve score?  I’m guessing Approach Shots are probably the first area?  Roughly speaking what mix of approach shots would be full swing vs wedge work?

@StuM saved me the time.

FWIW LSW was written and almost sent to the printer when ESC came out, so I was able to shoehorn in a few references as footnotes, etc. Our info in LSW aligned almost exactly with what Mark Broadie published.

If you look at the chart above, 90s to 80s is from 2.5 shots driving, 4.0 shots approach, 2.1 shots short game, and 1.4 shots putting. That's 65% full swing, 21% (close to 20%) short game, and 14% (close to 15%) putting. Which is a formula I'd come up with a LONG time ago, well before ESC or LSW were out.

Not only is that the rough contribution, but the full swing is tougher to maintain and has more Separation Value® to be had. Putting is relatively easy (which is why players are closer to Tour players at putting than they are at anything else in the game of golf).

[StuM]

1 hour ago, iacas said:

@StuM saved me the time.

How much is that fraction of a second saved worth to you?  You can just offset the $10 you may owe me for our bet, or I'll add it to the $10 I may owe you if I lose.

[NZ Golfer]

I agree it's hard to say one part of the game is extremely more important than another part .. good luck putting too win a hole when you drove it OB....

Still when I think about my game on average if my off the tee is not on point but I'm dropping darts at the flag and dropping those punts its a much better feeling and scoring than if I'm dial-in off the tee but can't chip or punt to save a par ... 

I'm thinking back to a recent hole ..first of a medal match ..1st hole PAR5 530yrds .. drilled two massive hits to be within 10yards!! to then duff my chip to roll back off the green towards me ... another chip + 3 putt ...yeah that leave sour taste esp when your doing than a few times a round 

Edited September 1, 2023 by NZ Golfer

[iacas]

7 hours ago, NZ Golfer said:

a recent hole

Such a large sample size.

😛

[DaveP043]

7 hours ago, NZ Golfer said:

to then duff my chip to roll back off the green towards me ... another chip + 3 putt ...yeah that leave sour taste esp when your doing than a few times a round 

I know its been said before, but the recommended practice percentages are generalities, not specific to any one player.  If you're duffing chips and 3-putting a few times per round, as a single-digit handicap, those are clearly weak points for you.  Another general recommendation is that you should skew your practice percentages to work on your weak points more than on your strengths.  

[NZ Golfer]

11 hours ago, iacas said:

Such a large sample size.

😛

No, It's happened far too many times over the years ... I'm the guy you play with that you can't believe I'm not a low single HC then see me play a bad hole and understand why .. 

my distances ... pitch highs etc right up with much better + golfers

Edited September 2, 2023 by NZ Golfer

[iacas]

7 hours ago, NZ Golfer said:

No, It's happened far too many times over the years ... I'm the guy you play with that you can't believe I'm not a low single HC then see me play a bad hole and understand why .. 

my distances ... pitch highs etc right up with much better + golfers

Then you have a glaring weakness.

We've never said in any of this "this applies to everyone at all times."

It's a general rule, just like the 65/20/15.

[Esox]

Because at my age it is my exemplary short game that keeps me competitive with the long hitting youngsters.

[NZ Golfer]

On 9/2/2023 at 11:41 PM, iacas said:

Then you have a glaring weakness.

We've never said in any of this "this applies to everyone at all times."

It's a general rule, just like the 65/20/15.

Yes something I'm working on ... looking forward to getting much better confidence in the Short game like 6months+ ago... I don't think I can blame the colder conditions or winter Course changes  (much tighter lies / fast greens)... 

[NZ Golfer]

Coming to the end of a neck/traps pulled muscle of late that's keeped me from playing any rounds of golf ... limiting me to short game practice .. am surprised how much time I can burn up chipping + putting ...been averaging 2hrs 2-3 times last couple weeks (hopefully I get my first round tomorrow feel 95% right)

We do have a great practice green at my local GC that offers many different shots ..so been enjoying setting up tricky chips onto very hard-to-get-close-to pins and then the same with putting routines using several balls trying to get all 7-8 with nil 3 putts!! ... much harder than it looks esp when you're getting down to the last 1-2 balls that are a bit further out that you need to sink ...way to add some pressure to your putting practice ..

[jfrain2004]

Just read Mark broadies book and finished 2nd season with shot scope.  All the stats point to what the book told me. It's all about the long game. Got down to 3.5 during the year ( back to 6 now )and only practiced and took lessons on long game. Previous years I would prob have biased my practice on short game. Shot scope still tells me v a scratch golfer that I'm coughing up 4 shots with long game while 100 yards in is costing me 1.5 shots, and putting sees me lose another 1 stroke.  Even with the stats staring me in the face I can't convince the bro that if he wants to get from 20 to single digits that is the long game he needs to sort. His stats telling him v a single digit capper that he's giving up 7 shots on the long game and just 3 on short game but refuses to believe. What's is the general consensus on the mark broadie shots gained method of analysis? 

Edited November 19, 2023 by jfrain2004

[billchao]

27 minutes ago, jfrain2004 said:

Just read Mark broadies book and finished 2nd season with shot scope.  All the stats point to what the book told me. It's all about the long game. Got down to 3.5 during the year ( back to 6 now )and only practiced and took lessons on long game. Previous years I would prob have biased my practice on short game. Shot scope still tells me v a scratch golfer that I'm coughing up 4 shots with long game while 100 yards in is costing me 1.5 shots, and putting sees me lose another 1 stroke.  Even with the stats staring me in the face I can't convince the bro that if he wants to get from 20 to single digits that is the long game he needs to sort. His stats telling him v a single digit capper that he's giving up 7 shots on the long game and just 3 on short game but refuses to believe. What's is the general consensus on the mark broadie shots gained method of analysis? 

I merged your topic with an existing one on the subject.

TL;DR: the stats don’t lie.

[iacas]

2 hours ago, jfrain2004 said:

Just read Mark broadies book and finished 2nd season with shot scope.  All the stats point to what the book told me. It's all about the long game. Got down to 3.5 during the year ( back to 6 now )and only practiced and took lessons on long game. Previous years I would prob have biased my practice on short game. Shot scope still tells me v a scratch golfer that I'm coughing up 4 shots with long game while 100 yards in is costing me 1.5 shots, and putting sees me lose another 1 stroke.  Even with the stats staring me in the face I can't convince the bro that if he wants to get from 20 to single digits that is the long game he needs to sort. His stats telling him v a single digit capper that he's giving up 7 shots on the long game and just 3 on short game but refuses to believe. What's is the general consensus on the mark broadie shots gained method of analysis? 

It's no longer just Mark Broadie's — by and large, it's just fact these days.

Now, that's a generalized look at things. There is a VERY small chance your brother could be a horrible putter, like world class bad, and that could be a primary area of focus. But probably not. 😄 

BTW, you should read Lowest Score Wins. 😉 

Came out like a month after Every Shot Counts and focuses on amateur golf more than PGA Tour players.

[ChetlovesMer]

12 hours ago, iacas said:

It's no longer just Mark Broadie's — by and large, it's just fact these days.

Agreed. 
The funny part, I still hear guys getting it totally wrong at the driving range I frequent. 

Guys who get this wrong, generally fall into three categories. 

1 - The old guy who just can't hit bombs any more. The guy will say something like "Sure, you hit it much farther than me, but the short game is where it's at." ... I can forgive these guys. My guess is these fellas have lost their distance, or at least a lot of it, and are trying to make lemonade out of life's lemons. 

2 - The delusional guy. This guy says something like "I could hit it 300 off the tee if I wanted to, but I like to put a premium on accuracy." ... Or ... "300 yards into the woods doesn't do you any good." Sometimes this guy will even reference a cousin or nephew or something. "I have a nephew who can hit it 350 yards off the tee, but he's a 36 handicap." 

3 - Then there's the just plain completely wrong guy. This guy sometimes says "Drive for show, putt for dough." But more often than not he says "I'd be a scratch golfer if I could just make a putt." A lot of the time this guy truly believes he should make every putt. He gets on the par-five in 4 shots and is ticked off when he misses the 35-footer for par. "See, if I could just putt, I'd be scratch." You can try to tell him that even tour pros 3-putt from that distance about 10% of the time. But he isn't listening. He's convinced his putting is holding him back.