Golf's Mental Game Aspect

[Buckeyebowman]

7 hours ago, Lihu said:

I don't think that's what this topic is about this at all, and some really fit looking people can't hit the ball as far as some really nerdy looking people. Golf is >95% physical for more than 95% of golfers who play regularly, but that doesn't mean you need to look like a super athlete to play well. Certainly not to play at your best.

The thread and it's predecessor thread are about how much emphasis you need to put on your mental game. This one is more about if you think mental game is more important than 5%, then please answer why? So far, no one has stated anything or cited precise examples as to why they think mental game is more than 5%. I think it's possible that it could be as much as 20% only because I don't exclude any possibilities, just like I still consider evolution a "theory" even though it's very strong, but so far I've not read any specific examples that couldn't be answered by a physical deficiency.

If we put this topic in a sport that most of can relate to like running. If I ran track in high school and could normally run a 400m anywhere between 50 seconds and 58 seconds depending upon the surfaces and conditions, and in one race I run a tough track in 50 seconds beating everyone then another where I feel like the competition is not so great and run it in 58 losing to everyone. 58 was my worst time and my normal range was 50 to 51. Was it my mental attitude? Some coaches think it is. I told my coach "I just didn't have it in me today." He said work on your "mental game". It turns out that hours before that race I had a leg press competition with some football players, and didn't feel the soreness until the following two days. My coach was so pissed off he made me run 800m runs for the remainder of the week and season.

So, when you are not at your best, it's probably not your "mental game" as it was in my case running track and also playing golf.

I think lied about when I was a beginner in golf that I'd think it could have been 50/50 because I don't think I'd have ever thought that. If my swing was bad I always went to a coach to teach me to get better. I didn't meditate for hours, although that would have been better than beating 600 balls a day.

I think this is a great post! When I first got "hooked" by golf, my learning was pretty much 100% physical. I had to learn grip, stance, alignment, how far to stand from the ball. how to take the club back, how to initiate the downswing, how to approach impact, etc., etc.!

But, once I had the physical thing down pretty well, and could play golf a little bit, there was a shift. I needed to learn how to really "play golf". And this is where the "mental game" came in.

As I've said before, to me it's "thinking your way around the course". Knowing what shots you can hit, and what shots are past you. When to go for it, and when to play it safe.How to manage your game so that you can score your best!

Edited October 8, 2017 by Buckeyebowman

[iacas]

6 hours ago, Jack Watson said:

Let's just say,  Tigers greatness was in no way just simple physical advantage.  Listen here...he talks of everything slowing down feeling more calm (alpha brain waves?). He even mentions blacking out...

I don't think Tiger had the best mental game ever. If he did, he would have been able to take his "range swing" to the course a lot more recently. Because, by all who saw it, his range swing and shots were great, and yet he'd get on the course and make very different swings. Really shot a big hole in the "Tiger has the best mental game by far".

6 hours ago, phillyk said:

Tiger's D- game was still better than most players B game.  His consistency in his prime was unparalleled.  That is purely physical greatness.  On his bad "mental" days, he was beating most of the competition.

Yep.

6 hours ago, saevel25 said:

Its primarily a physical advantage. No one could do what Tiger did. 

Did he have a physiological advantage, sure. He wouldn't have that advantage if he didn't have the physical one. 

Tiger's greatest psychological edge may have been that he knew he was so physically far ahead of most golfers.

1 hour ago, Ty_Webb said:

Let's suppose that a player is playing the Players Championship. They are tied for the lead after 16 holes on Sunday. They take dead aim at the flag on 17 - the back right one. They push their shot 15 feet right of the flag and it goes in the water. That's basically two shots wasted right there. Would you say that was a mental error or a physical error? If it was a bit of both, what proportion would you say it was? Personally I would say that was about 80% on the mental side and 20% on the physical side. He's an idiot for aiming at that flag, but he also missed his target, so it's a little of both.

That's on one shot. The fact of the matter is he's still tied for the lead at the Players Championship.

And for some players it may be 100% mechanics. Maybe he blocks his wedges sometimes. For others it may be more heavily mental on that on particular shot. It's not a question anyone can answer. Too hypothetical.

1 hour ago, Ty_Webb said:

Part of the reason that I'm surprised about the 5% for the mental side is I've been reading another thread on here (it's long, so I'm working through it slowly) about aiming at the middle of the green and not the flag from outside 100 yards. It seems like a lot of people are pretty foolish about where they aim. That's a mental issue and I'm surprised that it only contributes 1 shot in 20 shots difference.

Poor players don't hit it there anyway. PGA Tour players could aim at every flag and still wipe the floor with people.

It's not about 1 in 20. It's about the overall performance, and the relative weight that I feel it helps or hinders, generally speaking. You're applying the math wrong.

[Jack Watson]

Its interesting what the flow guy had to say regarding adventure sports.  I know from surfing it's a case of focus or receive the negative feedback of wiping out.  Snowboarding,  you push over the ledge and go down that run same thing,  of course you're gonna fall soon enough if you are pushing your limits,  but adventure sports have a built in feedback mechanism there.   You lose flow you will hurt.  Skateboarding has broken my limbs a couple times.

I saw Joe Rogan talking about playing pool and he soooo hit the nail on the head.  He mentioned if you play a lot especially for hours at a time you get into 'dead stick'  where you are at another level.  He said also that if you recognize yourself in this you start thinking and the magic is lost.  I've so been there in many different activities.  That's the crazy thing about it.  Fail to stay focused and boom you can slip out.   It's ephemeral.  

The amazing thing is that science is now advancing to the point where these types of states of mind can be measured.  

5 minutes ago, iacas said:

don't think Tiger had the best mental game ever. If he did, he would have been able to take his "range swing" to the course a lot more recently. Because, by all who saw it, his range swing and shots were great, and yet he'd get on the course and make very different swings. Really shot a big hole in the "Tiger has the best mental game by far

I never said he did.  But he did spend a young life developing his swing.  Under Butch he made minor change but mechanically it was still the swing he grew up with.  He was able to get so deep into his mental zone at times that as he said in the interview he often couldn't remember the swing!  IMO you just don't mess with that.  Later he chased more changes mechanically and I don't know if that was really a good idea.

Foley talked a lot about myelin and some made fun but he may have been right.  The difficulty faced by Foley was astronomical imo.

I think Tiger was programmed.  In 2000 he had capability way beyond others in the world.  Then he went in and tried to modify the existing programming.  Tall order.

He said in the video I posted (not sure if anyone bothered watching) that his subconscious took over.  IMO people don't appreciate the level of work it takes to get to that and maybe Tiger himself truly did not realize what might happen if he screwed with it.

I think Tiger was able to get into a very deep mental zone before he messed around too much trying to totally perfect himself.  

[iacas]

16 minutes ago, Jack Watson said:

I never said he did.

I didn't say you said he did.

Many others have. I was using your post as a jumping off point.

17 minutes ago, Jack Watson said:

He was able to get so deep into his mental zone at times that as he said in the interview he often couldn't remember the swing!

Yeah, Tiger's always completely honest, at all times…

Of course you'd believe him when you think it supports your point.

[Jack Watson]

Ok ok @iacas,

I don't believe it's a my point vs your point deal here.  I am just going to step back a bit now on posting on this because it is something integral to my life that I worked hard for and honestly  it's as much reality to me as saying the earth is round.

I have not researched this type of thing for many years but I am encouraged to see now how many people are working on this.  My experiencing this deal came not from golf but from other things,  so obviously having experienced what I have I was out to use that in golf.  I will make one more post of a very quick video on Berkas device and the brain state feedback that she used to help the military cut learning times for snipers significantly and also showed the same brain state in Olympic archers and PGA golfers and after that I doubt I will say much.  If you just wanna jump to the funny part it's after 4 min...Loved his comments after first try...

As always cheers guys,  I just feel it's time to kinda slow down the posting level now for some reason...

[iacas]

10 minutes ago, Jack Watson said:

I don't believe it's a my point vs your point deal here.

Again, I didn’t say it was.

[Ty_Webb]

2 hours ago, iacas said:

And for some players it may be 100% mechanics. Maybe he blocks his wedges sometimes. For others it may be more heavily mental on that on particular shot. It's not a question anyone can answer. Too hypothetical.

So for those players for whom it's 100% mechanics, you're suggesting that the flag is the correct target? 

[iacas]

7 hours ago, Ty_Webb said:

So for those players for whom it's 100% mechanics, you're suggesting that the flag is the correct target? 

I don’t know how you could get that from what I said.

[chspeed]

11 hours ago, iacas said:

Tiger's greatest psychological edge may have been that he knew he was so physically far ahead of most golfers.

+1

Just want to add something. I read a lot of books, including a fair number of golf journalism books. I believe that part of the misconception about mental vs physical is due to journalism bias. A story about Tiger's mental toughness is more compelling than a story about his impact position. As in all sports, journalists also like to attribute skill and chance to mental phenomena like choking. It's not that mental toughness and choking don't exist, it's just that IMO, they're a much smaller contributor to the outcome of a game than is portrayed in golf journalism.

Edited October 9, 2017 by chspeed

[Lihu]

28 minutes ago, chspeed said:

Just want to add something. I read a lot of books, including a fair number of golf journalism books. I believe that part of the misconception about mental vs physical is due to journalism bias. A story about Tiger's mental toughness is more compelling than a story about his impact position. As in all sports, journalists also like to attribute skill and chance to mental phenomena like choking. It's not that mental toughness and choking don't exist, it's just that IMO, they're a much smaller contributor to the outcome of a game than is portrayed in golf journalism.

They do this because many if not most golfers think this, and it'll sell more of whatever they're selling.

[Midpack]

Well you’ve clearly found a topic with no end.

Again, mental must play a much smaller role for pros and low handicappers. But the overwhelming number of players are neither, I’m addressing this topic from the POV of the larger group.

Again, I think golf is more physical than mental but the mental isn’t trivial, more than 5%. However in thinking more about it, maybe improving your game requires more mental effort than just playing at a given time - and that’s why I’ve GUESSed golf is 10-20% mental. Why else would golf instructors/writers universally say just mindlessly pounding balls on a driving range probably won’t help. I assume we all know people who put almost no thought into improving and are satisfied with a handicap that doesn’t change year after year. And I’ve watched players make the same poor choices with predictable bad outcomes while playing over and over. It takes a series of conscious physical and mental steps to develop/improve swing fundamentals and to practice deliberately. And game planning is also largely mental for most amateurs.

And it’s hard to believe someone can shoot a 98 one day and a 77 the next time out without mental playing more than a 5% role. How could someone be that physically inconsistent days apart?

 

Edited October 9, 2017 by Midpack

[Lihu]

5 minutes ago, Midpack said:

Well you’ve clearly found a topic with no end.

Again, mental must play a much smaller role for pros and low handicappers. But the overwhelming number of players are neither, I’m addressing this topic from the POV of the larger group.

Is it possible that that larger group could play better if they think that they should be improving their physical games instead?

 

5 minutes ago, Midpack said:

Again, I think golf is more physical than mental but the mental isn’t trivial, more than 5%. However in thinking more about it, maybe improving your game requires more mental effort than just playing at a given time - and that’s why I’ve GUESSed golf is 10-20% mental.

Maybe, but 5% is not trivial.

 

5 minutes ago, Midpack said:

Why else would golf instructors/writers universally say just mindlessly pounding balls on a driving range probably won’t help.

Even instructors who think it's a >95% physical game don't endorse this.

 

5 minutes ago, Midpack said:

And it’s hard to believe someone can shoot a 98 one day and a 77 the next time out without mental playing more than a 5% role. How could someone be that physically inconsistent days apart?

$hit happens. . .

[Midpack]

16 minutes ago, Lihu said:

$hit happens. . .

That’s persuasive...

Edited October 9, 2017 by Midpack

[Lihu]

14 minutes ago, Midpack said:

That’s persuasive...

Joking aside, 98 to 77 is a push, but it could happen. Penalties can chomp away at good scores quite a bit.

I agree if you're talking ESC, then no way. But with stroke count with penalties, you could rack up some strokes.

Edited October 9, 2017 by Lihu
Corrected my spellchecker :-P

[Ty_Webb]

23 hours ago, iacas said:

I don’t know how you could get that from what I said.

I thought I already posted this, but I'm now not sure what happened. Anyway, I'll try again.

In the first post in the thread, you said that shot selection, game planning and strategy was on the mental side. If the situation I described was 100% physical for some players, that means it was 0% mental. That means that there was no error in their shot selection, game planning or strategy. That means that the flag was the "correct" target for that player (even though he sometimes blocks it). I thought that was strange, so was asking for clarification. 

 

[saevel25]

20 minutes ago, Ty_Webb said:

That means that there was no error in their shot selection, game planning or strategy. That means that the flag was the "correct" target for that player (even though he sometimes blocks it).

In some cases the flag is not the correct target. A player has a dispersion area that his shots end up in. Would it be correct strategy to aim at the flag when that might bring in water or bunkers into play? It's all about getting the ball into the hole in the least amount of strokes. Some might say that means taking more risks. In the long run, those risks add up.

[Ty_Webb]

33 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

In some cases the flag is not the correct target. A player has a dispersion area that his shots end up in. Would it be correct strategy to aim at the flag when that might bring in water or bunkers into play? It's all about getting the ball into the hole in the least amount of strokes. Some might say that means taking more risks. In the long run, those risks add up.

100% agree with you. That's the point I'm trying to make.

[iacas]

On 10/9/2017 at 9:19 AM, chspeed said:

Just want to add something. I read a lot of books, including a fair number of golf journalism books. I believe that part of the misconception about mental vs physical is due to journalism bias. A story about Tiger's mental toughness is more compelling than a story about his impact position. As in all sports, journalists also like to attribute skill and chance to mental phenomena like choking. It's not that mental toughness and choking don't exist, it's just that IMO, they're a much smaller contributor to the outcome of a game than is portrayed in golf journalism.

Thanks. I agree.

On 10/9/2017 at 9:51 AM, Midpack said:

Again, mental must play a much smaller role for pros and low handicappers. But the overwhelming number of players are neither, I’m addressing this topic from the POV of the larger group.

You don't know, though. You're guessing, like just about everyone.

On 10/9/2017 at 9:51 AM, Midpack said:

Why else would golf instructors/writers universally say just mindlessly pounding balls on a driving range probably won’t help.

When I'm practicing I'm not doing a lot of "mental game" stuff, and practice isn't playing - it's 100% about improving the physical aspects of your game.

Practice isn't playing golf.

On 10/9/2017 at 9:51 AM, Midpack said:

And game planning is also largely mental for most amateurs.

It's also relatively easy. That's why people who read LSW are often able to shoot lower scores immediately, just by GamePlanning properly.

That may sound like I'm arguing against myself. I said in LSW that good GamePlanning could save a golfer multiple shots per round. I stand by that.

But it's also a matter of how difficult it is. Read LSW and apply what it says, and BAM, you're an expert GamePlanner. So I'm weighting that against how easy it is to master, and thus, giving "game planning" pretty low relevance.

If you want to read that as giving it more weight than the 5% I've said, know that of the 5% I've postulated in general, GamePlanning and realistic expectations may be 40-50% of that 5%, partly because if you GamePlan properly with realistic expectations, a lot of your nerves, etc. go away too because you're not constantly asking yourself to hit shots above your pay grade.

On 10/9/2017 at 9:51 AM, Midpack said:

And it’s hard to believe someone can shoot a 98 one day and a 77 the next time out without mental playing more than a 5% role. How could someone be that physically inconsistent days apart?

How could they be that mentally inconsistent?

And who shot 98 and then 77? A one-off example isn't going to carry much weight.

12 hours ago, Ty_Webb said:

That means that the flag was the "correct" target for that player (even though he sometimes blocks it). I thought that was strange, so was asking for clarification. 

The flag is not the correct target, because they still have a Shot Zone that has a width and a depth, even if they sometimes block their short irons.

I'm just saying that if a player excessively blocks 1 out of 40 short irons, sometimes pushing the ball into the water could be 100% physical. Maybe their entire mental game was perfectly on point, and they could hit one in the water.