Golf's Mental Game Aspect

[Secretmove]

 

http://blog.secretgolf.com/jason-dufner-and-the-importance-of-shoulder-plane

 

 I think for this discussion, Its illuminating to find what exactly duff is MENTALLY concentrating on, one simple thing.  Under pressure, you can just find the calming thought, what is my right shoulder doing. 

Mental game: it would be nice to have a simple swing thought/key (LIKE THE DUFF)  that gives you if nothing else, the ability to block out other thoughts, and focus the mind, something that's worked in the past.  You got people screaming mashed potatoes or cheering you on or trying to distract you, and all you think is what is my right shoulder doing. 

Off topic, but all tour pros seem to steepen the shoulder plane, some do dramatically, like tiger goes from 40 to 21 or something.  I'm working on that, incorporating that into my swing drill I'm obsessed with, so this video was illuminating for that as well. 

Elk in this video, you know,  has his own website the dirt, and is constantly looking everywhere for technical stuff to post there. 

The oldest hustle in the world is to compliment someone's swing, say nice swing, not nice shot.  Somebody tells me nice swing, I know they are trying to game me. 

Bad to play golf swing.  Good to play golf.  Good to have a simple key that works for you and triggers a repeating move you can control.  The Duff rules.  He doesn't think about hands, hips or anything other than what is my right shoulder doing. 

 

 

 

 

 

[mvmac]

6 hours ago, Secretmove said:

 

http://blog.secretgolf.com/jason-dufner-and-the-importance-of-shoulder-plane

 I think for this discussion, Its illuminating to find what exactly duff is MENTALLY concentrating on, one simple thing.  Under pressure, you can just find the calming thought, what is my right shoulder doing. 

Mental game: it would be nice to have a simple swing thought/key (LIKE THE DUFF)  that gives you if nothing else, the ability to block out other thoughts, and focus the mind, something that's worked in the past.  You got people screaming mashed potatoes or cheering you on or trying to distract you, and all you think is what is my right shoulder doing. 

Yes agree, I think having a simple swing thought that provides a mental image of what you want to do with your move can be very valuable. Finding the one that works for you is just understanding your tendencies and some trial and error. Be careful about trying to copy someone else's because it might have nothing to do with your move.

BTW let's be careful to steer clear of discussing swing thoughts too much because I don't categorize them as mental game too much. The main purpose of a swing thought is to have a physical effect on your swing.

Also this is from the first post in the thread.

Quote

And, because it's going to be necessary, I'm going to define the mental game as such:

• Shot selection, game planning, strategy (though this is pretty simple, and even non-golfers can make these decisions).
• Ability to focus or "get out of your way." (i.e. some people perform best when they aren't hyper-focused, some do). This can also include visualizing shots, not having too many swing thoughts, etc.
• Nerves, even though they may manifest as shaking hands, sweaty hands, accelerated heart rates, etc.

Things that aren't included:

• Green reading, feeling the wind, how you're feeling that day, or any of the inputs needed to make a decision.
• "Desire" to practice or improve the physical components, or anything of this ilk.
• "The brain controls everything, so it's all mental."
• The effect swing thoughts have on your swing. I play with one swing thought almost every time I play (at most, two, but never on the same swing) because they lead to a change my physical swing. It's a fine line to draw, but let's try to draw it.
• Knowledge of the rules of golf or any other tangential, fringe-related things.

 

7 hours ago, Secretmove said:

He doesn't think about hands, hips or anything other than what is my right shoulder doing. 

Yeah that's the correct swing thought for him. Others might be more "hands to pivot" players.

[Secretmove]

https://www.breakthroughbasketball.com/mental/visualization.html

other studies show no statistical diff but this did. 

I won an amateur tournament in cold wind and rain with a hood over my head singing to myself "midnight at the oasis", which I heard over the radio just before I teed off.  Lots of pros use music to warm up, something there. 

"I challenged someone to think of a purely mental exercise to help my physical game, and no one came up with one. So far, no takers. They offer only physical exercises to help the mental game".

Well here you go buddy, there it is.  sit on the couch and visualize your swing, but do so with a tempo, a metronome.  First you have to figure out what your rhythm is, I would suggest buying a copy of Tour Tempo to get some ideas.  You can transfer the prerecorded beats in that CD/book to an earbud devise and use it at practice or just sitting visualizing your swing, maybe take a video of yourself and visualize them together. 

I like that Tiger video where he admits he can't visualize specifically ball flight, I could never imagine anything visual, but then the guy suggests use your hands as visual aids and feel the shot, and Tiger starts moving his hands to describe a low hook or high fade. 

Thanks for that Tiger video, that is definitely what I'm going to do from now on before a shot, what a great idea.  Point your finger to the ball start path and see the  ball flight curve by tracing it with your finger and snugging up to the pin....with your finger.  Or, if you don't want to move your finger, just think of doing that. 

[iacas]

3 minutes ago, Secretmove said:

Well here you go buddy, there it is.  sit on the couch and visualize your swing, but do so with a tempo, a metronome.  First you have to figure out what your rhythm is, I would suggest buying a copy of Tour Tempo to get some ideas.  You can transfer the prerecorded beats in that CD/book to an earbud devise and use it at practice or just sitting visualizing your swing, maybe take a video of yourself and visualize them together.

There's also this:

Mental practice is better than no practice at all, but it's nowhere near as good as physical practice.

[Secretmove]

---

Sam Sneed had a Gestalt swing thought that did not involve specific mechanics, it was "oily". 

Another idea, for inspiration, which motivates, excites and fertilizes the imagination, re-read golf in the kingdom.   Read golf is not a game of perfect. 

I've heard many player and others describe tigers "imagination" around the greens as his greatest strength.  Visualize that hole out at the masters with the ball hanging on the lip, then falling. 

Visualize this if you don't think Mentality means anything, visualize Raymond Floyds stare. 

Did I say mental game is equal to practice?  I did not.   I respond specifically to a post where this question was asked to come up with something purely mental.................. 

How many pros say when asked how they are going to maintain their lead the last day say "it doesn't matter, the "benefits of mental practice relative to physical practice" are minimal.  Not one pro has said that.  What they say is I'll just take one shot at a time and all the other dogmatic crap pros say, stay in t he moment, just have fun.  Something positive. 

If this is a game, and you have competitors who want to beat you, and you think its only physical, I'm better physically and technically they anybody else then I'll win, you're going to get gamed like a red headed step child, and I think you know that.  Besides, what happens when  you are up against someone better physically and technically than you, like Mac O'Grady?  You better find some happy positive place in your head or you'll choke like a !@#$!@#$@#!$ dog. 

And another thing, if you are out there thinking golf swing, you'll have no chance. 

So, what can you do pure mentally?  Why is it that literally every top pro is employing a shrink?   Or call it a mental coach???????

 

[iacas]

4 minutes ago, Secretmove said:

And another thing, if you are out there thinking golf swing, you'll have no chance. 

That's not entirely true at all. Everyone's built differently.

I think, as I've said many times, that the "mental game" is over-rated. Good players have a better "mental game" because their mechanics are so good. If they're playing well, and in a position to win, they're likely not fighting their mechanics. So they naturally put more importance on their "mental game" at that time. They tend to ignore the years and years and years of work that they've put into the physical. They have a new baseline at the moment, and so the physical comes easily to them, a bit more automatic, while they're a bit more aware of their mental game.

That doesn't mean it's more important, per se, it means it's more on their minds…

Poor players love to blame their mental game, but after a good shot, they don't look back and think "gee, I somehow hit a good shot even though my thoughts there were almost exactly the same as they were before when I hit a horrible shot." They don't look to ascribe blame to their good shots. They tend to automatically assume good shots = because of their physical skills, bad shots = mental game.

Golfers love to blame the thing that they think is easily fixed. Just like they constantly search out a new driver that will fix their driving, or a new putter that will help them hole more putts. They think if they blame something that's easy to fix… that it lessens the "blame" they get themselves, or something. But then they never "fix" it, even though it's "easy," because ultimately the physical is what actually holds them back.

The mental game, generally speaking, is given too much credit IMO.

 

[mvmac]

13 minutes ago, Secretmove said:

Besides, what happens when  you are up against someone better physically and technically than you, like Mac O'Grady?  You better find some happy positive place in your head or you'll choke like a !@#$!@#$@#!$ dog. 

I don't know, seems like a lot of pros didn't have much problem beating Mac 

14 minutes ago, Secretmove said:

Why is it that literally every top pro is employing a shrink?  

One player in the top 10 OWGR has a mental coach. 

DJ - no mental coach, has a swing coach
Spieth - no mental coach, has a swing coach
Justin Thomas - no mental coach, but does have a swing coach
Jon Rahm - no mental coach, no swing coach that I know of
Hideki Matsuyama - no mental coach, no swing coach that I know of, but he does have a chef that travels with him 
Justin Rose - mental and swing coach
Rickie Fowler - no mental coach, has a swing coach
Brooks Koepka - no mental coach, has a swing coach
Rory McIlroy - no mental coach, has a swing coach

 

[iacas]

1 minute ago, mvmac said:

DJ - no mental coach, has a swing coach
Spieth - no mental coach, has a swing coach
Justin Thomas - no mental coach, but does have a swing coach
Jon Rahm - no mental coach, no swing coach that I know of
Hideki Matsuyama - no mental coach, no swing coach that I know of, but he does have a chef that travels with him 
Justin Rose - mental and swing coach
Rickie Fowler - no mental coach, has a swing coach
Brooks Koepka - no mental coach, has a swing coach
Rory McIlroy - no mental coach, has a swing coach

I feel like the mental game guru era has quietly been dying down for a long time. It was a hot thing in the 90s and into the early 2000s, but since about 2005 it's really started to quiet down, it seems.

[Ty_Webb]

@iacas, what are your thoughts on the 1996 Masters? Through three rounds, Here are the top scores:

Norman 63, 69, 71 = 203 (-13)

Faldo 69, 67, 73 = 209 (-7)

Mickelson 65, 73, 72 = 210 (-6)

So Norman is 6 shots ahead of the field and shot a 63 on Thursday. I'd say that was a guy who was pretty much on top of his physical game, wouldn't you? Then after four rounds here are the scores:

Faldo 67 for 276 (-12)

Norman 78 for 281 (-7)

Mickelson 72 for 282 (-6)

Other scores for players who finished in the top 10 that day 69, 71, 72, 68, 69, 71, 74, 74, so 78 is a pretty extreme outlier.

In your opinion, what caused Greg Norman to go from shooting -13 for three days to +6 for one day? I mean clearly there were physical differences. His clubface was pointing in the wrong place on several occasions. The real question there though is why? What made that happen? Was it flaws in his swing that just randomly happened to manifest themselves on that Sunday? Or was it something else? 

[iacas]

5 minutes ago, Ty_Webb said:

@iacas, what are your thoughts on the 1996 Masters? Through three rounds, Here are the top scores:

I think that the margin of error at that level of golf is ridiculously small. 3 feet separated #1, Tiger Woods, from #120, Camilo Villegas.

I think that perhaps Greg Norman was playing above his level for awhile, and regressed to the mean a little on Sunday.

I think that it's one situation, which you would agree is a ridiculously small sample size.

I think that luck played a role.

I think that Greg simply hit some bad shots, and his physical skills were not the same on Sunday. Surely you've had days where you shoot great one day and horribly the next, despite feeling about the same, and having the same mental outlook.

I think, overall, though… that we have no way of really knowing what the cause was, or the contribution in that case. For all we know his mental game was poor the first three days, and really good on Sunday!

[rehmwa]

1 hour ago, Secretmove said:

---

 I respond specifically to a post where this question was asked to come up with something purely mental..................

You did fine.  You answered this part of the OP with some decent examples.  (Mainly addressing the 2nd and 3rd bullets of Erik's definiiton - which many/most likely consider the main 'mental' aspects needed)

Quote

So, the purpose of this topic is two-fold:  (Second Item)

• To discuss just how much the mental game affects golfers generally, as well as individually (please be clear about this distinction when you're posting).

And, because it's going to be necessary, I'm going to define the mental game as such:

• Shot selection, game planning, strategy (though this is pretty simple, and even non-golfers can make these decisions).
• Ability to focus or "get out of your way." (i.e. some people perform best when they aren't hyper-focused, some do). This can also include visualizing shots, not having too many swing thoughts, etc.
• Nerves, even though they may manifest as shaking hands, sweaty hands, accelerated heart rates, etc.

The responses you are getting are part of the other aspect of the OP (which came from a "physical vs mental game" thread) - there's no need for you to feel you are defending your position.  They are just expounding on the other discussion topic of this thread as below.

Quote

So, the purpose of this topic is two-fold:  (First item)

• To discuss just how much the mental game affects golfers generally, as well as individually (please be clear about this distinction when you're posting).

In terms of 'bang for the buck', surely technique, practice and good muscle memory are the biggest wins by far, especially for those needing 'real' gains at 'typical' 'enthusiast' golfer levels of competency.  Which you acknowledged.

purely aside - I think in this topic, it's also a good thing to note that "feel" and "mental" are completely different things, especially as we've defined them.

Edited January 3, 2018 by rehmwa

[Yff Theos]

56 minutes ago, mvmac said:

One player in the top 10 OWGR has a mental coach. 

DJ - no mental coach, has a swing coach
Spieth - no mental coach, has a swing coach
Justin Thomas - no mental coach, but does have a swing coach
Jon Rahm - no mental coach, no swing coach that I know of
Hideki Matsuyama - no mental coach, no swing coach that I know of, but he does have a chef that travels with him 
Justin Rose - mental and swing coach
Rickie Fowler - no mental coach, has a swing coach
Brooks Koepka - no mental coach, has a swing coach
Rory McIlroy - no mental coach, has a swing coach

Perhaps this is why three most prominent of the listed players (McIlroy, Spieth, Johnson) happened to collapse mentally spectacularily at least once. I have never heard Justin Rose lost an important tournament due to his weak mental side.

[iacas]

22 minutes ago, rehmwa said:

In terms of 'bang for the buck', surely technique, practice and good muscle memory are the biggest wins by far, especially for those needing 'real' gains at 'typical' 'enthusiast' golfer levels of competency.  Which you acknowledged.

Right.

The mental game is a tiny thing. It's a small edge. It's not going to shave ten strokes off your game.

On the PGA Tour, a small edge can matter quite a bit, but it's still a small edge: the much bigger edges involve actually hitting the ball better than the other guys.

23 minutes ago, Yff Theos said:

Perhaps this is why three most prominent of the listed players (McIlroy, Spieth, Johnson) happened to collapse mentally spectacularily at least once. I have never heard Justin Rose lost an important tournament due to his weak mental side.

Literally the first result of a search for "justin rose falters" (with quotes, so an exact phrase!) is this: http://www.skysports.com/golf/news/12176/11134060/tommy-fleetwood-crowned-european-no-1-after-justin-rose-falters. Or does that not count because you're just going to decide to attribute it to something else, or because you didn't "hear" about it?

And Justin Rose has won how many majors? He's been ranked #1 in the world for how many weeks? I don't see his name here. Jordan Spieth and Rory McIlroy have won how many? Dustin Johnson has only recently come on, but dominated at Oakmont despite the USGA's weird situation with the ball moved thing.

Tiger Woods "collapsed" in 2009 at the PGA. Why? His ballstriking let him down that final day. He was a bit afraid of his driver, laying back and hitting longer clubs in, and not hitting them as close to the hole.

[GolfLug]

17 minutes ago, Yff Theos said:

Perhaps this is why three most prominent of the listed players (McIlroy, Spieth, Johnson) happened to collapse mentally spectacularily at least once. I have never heard Justin Rose lost an important tournament due to his weak mental side.

@Yff Theos, yet all three you mentioned (wonder why you ignored the other six) have a higher win percentage than Rose. But I think this is besides the point really. 

I don't think anybody is arguing presence of mind is not important or required. And yes, maybe the mental coach helps Rose to stay focused with triggers, etc. Not a bad thing at all but he would probably be beating the crap out of 99% of pros out there even without a mental coach. 

Citing specific incidences does not negate the larger body of work these players have put together, which primarily attributes to a physical skill set as the majority differentiation aspect.    

[Yff Theos]

22 minutes ago, iacas said:

Literally the first result of a search for "justin rose falters" (with quotes, so an exact phrase!) is this: http://www.skysports.com/golf/news/12176/11134060/tommy-fleetwood-crowned-european-no-1-after-justin-rose-falters. Or does that not count because you're just going to decide to attribute it to something else, or because you didn't "hear" about it?

Of course, it counts despite I have never heard about it. You had to search it as well, as I see. But this is something different than the collapse of the three mentioned players. Rose played poorly this second nine but never experienced what did Spieth or McIlroy on 1 ridiculously bad hole. Imo, if they were better prepared mentally they would not have lost so stupidly so many strokes because of weak mindset and still could have been in play

 

18 minutes ago, GolfLug said:

@Yff Theos, yet all three you mentioned (wonder why you ignored the other six) have a higher win percentage than Rose.

I did it because these three lost spectacularily while I believe they could do better with a mental coach in these particular situation. besides, Rose is a major winner, these other guys (except Koepka) aren't.

Anyhow, I think it is better to have one good mental coach that not have such.

Edited January 3, 2018 by Yff Theos
grammar

[iacas]

2 minutes ago, Yff Theos said:

You had to search it as well, as I see.

I didn't, actually. I could have named a few events he lost despite having the lead during the final round. I just wanted to show you that you could have "heard" of something with a simple search. Even my super specific one using the words "justin rose falters" returned a result, and it was from less than two months ago.

2 minutes ago, Yff Theos said:

But this is something different than the collapse of the three mentioned players. Rose played poorly this second nine but never experienced what did Spieth or McIlroy on 1 ridiculously bad hole.

Again… how many majors does Justin Rose have compared to the others on the list? How many weeks has he spent at the top of the OWGR?

Oh my, Spieth and McIlroy flamed out (at Augusta National)… yet both have been OWGR #1, and both have many more majors than Rose. So what's your point exactly?

2 minutes ago, Yff Theos said:

Imo, if they were better prepared mentally they would not have lost so stupidly so many strokes because of weak mindset and still could have been in play.

Look, this is basically just making shit up. I could just as easily say: "IMO, if Justin Rose ditched his mental game coach, he could have won four or five or six majors by now and been OWGR #1 for 50 weeks or so." You're just making up an opinion that suits your other opinion.

The facts of the matter are that nine of the ten golfers at the top of the OWGR don't have a mental game coach.

2 minutes ago, Yff Theos said:

Besides, Rose is a major winner, these other guys (except Koepka) aren't.

Huh? I bolded the major winners from @mvmac's list below. I could make red the ones below who were OWGR #1s, but Rose's name wouldn't be red.

DJ - no mental coach, has a swing coach
Spieth - no mental coach, has a swing coach
Justin Thomas - no mental coach, but does have a swing coach
Jon Rahm - no mental coach, no swing coach that I know of
Hideki Matsuyama - no mental coach, no swing coach that I know of, but he does have a chef that travels with him 
Justin Rose - mental and swing coach
Rickie Fowler - no mental coach, has a swing coach
Brooks Koepka - no mental coach, has a swing coach
Rory McIlroy - no mental coach, has a swing coach

[GolfLug]

I am thinking of PMing Rotella to see if he would caddy for me. I think I might have a chance to take home a couple of three majors..

[mvmac]

1 hour ago, Yff Theos said:

Perhaps this is why three most prominent of the listed players (McIlroy, Spieth, Johnson) happened to collapse mentally spectacularily at least once. I have never heard Justin Rose lost an important tournament due to his weak mental side.

Come on @Yff Theos, you expect them to be perfect every time they're in the lead? Every great player has "collapsed" in big tournaments. Nicklaus, Watson, Hogan, Palmer, Mickelson. 

It's Golf! Whether it's mental or just a few bad swings it can be tough to know for sure. Like @iacas says, the margin of error is very small.

49 minutes ago, Yff Theos said:

Rose played poorly this second nine but never experienced what did Spieth or McIlroy on 1 ridiculously bad hole. Imo, if they were better prepared mentally they would not have lost so stupidly so many strokes because of weak mindset and still could have been in play

This is getting ridiculous. Jordan Spieth has a weak mindset?! Did you watch the Open Championship this year?

Spieth also went -2 the next three holes after making 7 on 12 in the 2016 Masters (the collaspe I assume you're talking about). When Spieth talked about the screwup he blames it more on making a bad swing than being nervous or whatever.

Quote

“I put a bad swing on it at 12, right at the wrong time. I was still leading the Masters. I put some weak swings on it, three holes in a row, and suddenly I wasn’t leading the Masters any more.