Why do so many golfers think short game is holding them back?

[iacas]

11 hours ago, JonMA1 said:

1. If many of us are not accurately recognizing what our game needs, how do we make that determination? Not trying to use the "I'm different than everyone else" way of thinking, but every one of us has unique weaknesses and strengths, correct?

By comparing yourself to players at your level or slightly better than your level. If you're scoring the same as others, but your driving and irons are better than theirs, and their putting and short game is better than yours… your putting and short game are likely a glaring weakness.

Not too difficult.

11 hours ago, JonMA1 said:

2. When looking long-term towards improvement, shouldn't we look more at incremental improvement throughout and not what will take us to scratch? In other words, improve all aspects evenly and not try to get to 12 GIR per round when we don't have a snowball's chance of getting there.

Yeah. If you're gonna cap out at an 8 handicap, you would ideally get every level of your game (if possible) to about an 8 handicap.

That's what 65/20/15 does, generally speaking, if you're starting from a well-rounded position (i.e. you're a "15 handicapper" for all the shots, give or take a small margin).

11 hours ago, JonMA1 said:

Maybe the 65/20/15 ratio is the answer for all but the worst glaring weaknesses and I'm over-thinking this.

No. 65/20/15 is for a well-rounded, "even" game. If you have any glaring weakness, change the 65/20/15.

[David in FL]

2 hours ago, iacas said:

No. 65/20/15 is for a well-rounded, "even" game. If you have any glaring weakness, change the 65/20/15.

I'd bet any glaring weaknesses (outliers to the 65/20/15) tend to be more likely found in better players.  Not in high handicappers who need to genuinely work harder on their putting than their full-swing....

[iacas]

39 minutes ago, David in FL said:

I'd bet any glaring weaknesses (outliers to the 65/20/15) tend to be more likely found in better players.  Not in high handicappers who need to genuinely work harder on their putting than their full-swing....

The data does not support that. Higher handicappers lose more strokes with their approach shots and driving… just like everyone else.

4.0 strokes lost putting going from 110 to 80 out of the 30. Contrast that to 4 strokes lost just going from 90 to 80 in the approach shots.

[David in FL]

That was my point.  

I imagine that low handicappers are more likely to need even less help with the full swing relative to the rest of their game than high handicappers...

I guess my intent wasn't clear in my post.

Edited November 12, 2017 by David in FL

[iacas]

Just now, David in FL said:

That was my point.  

I imagine that low handicappers are more likely to need even less help with the full swing relative to the rest of their game than high handicappers...

The data does not support that, no.

Lower handicappers still have a lot more strokes to gain with their full swing (driving/approach) than the other two categories.

[David in FL]

1 minute ago, iacas said:

The data does not support that, no.

So low handicap players are just as likely to need as much work on their long game as high handicappers?

Huh...

[iacas]

Just now, David in FL said:

So low handicap players are just as likely to need as much work on their long game as high handicappers?

Huh...

Yeah…

[JonMA1]

10 hours ago, iacas said:

By comparing yourself to players at your level or slightly better than your level. If you're scoring the same as others, but your driving and irons are better than theirs, and their putting and short game is better than yours… your putting and short game are likely a glaring weakness.

Not too difficult.

Thanks for the acknowledgment and information, Erik.

I would have thought it fairly simple as well, but this topic and some of the posts indicate many of us have trouble.

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I'll go back to something I said earlier in the topic. It's a small sampling, but most of the guys I know at my level say one thing and do the other. They may talk about how important the short game is, but work more on their long games. I believe the reason is that they hear "drive for show...." from pros and better players, so they feel confident in repeating it. At the same time, they recognize what are costing them strokes and work on that at the range. I think deep down, they're closet LSW readers. 

I asked this a while back and didn't get a response so I'll ask it again to anyone. Given the same opportunity to practice either, does the average high capper really practice more of their short game than long game?

[iacas]

That’s irrelevant @JonMA1. For two reasons.

1. They’re not really “practicing.” They’re just hitting balls.

2. They may and often do still believe the short game hurts them more.

High handicappers almost never actually practice.

[JonMA1]

37 minutes ago, iacas said:

1. They’re not really “practicing.” They’re just hitting balls.

Good point. It's rare to see someone practicing what looks to be a priority piece.

Edit: The relevancy is that given the choice, they choose the range over the practice green, unless you're saying they are just hitting balls and realize it isn't practice. That might be the case.

Edited November 12, 2017 by JonMA1

[Slugox]

If you're working on grip, stance, setup to improve quality of ballstriking, is that not effective practicing.

[DaveP043]

2 hours ago, Slugox said:

If you're working on grip, stance, setup to improve quality of ballstriking, is that not effective practicing.

I know you have a Swing Thread, and you've received some specific advice, as well as some advice about practicing specifically to chance the picture.  I'd guess that most golfers don't have a specific "priority piece" that they're working on, based on competent instruction, and if they do, they're not doing the type of work, slow, specific, that will allow them to make the change most efficiently.  So they might think they're practicing, but there's not doing it effectively.  And I think that this is true across the broad spectrum of skill levels.

[Slugox]

20 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

I know you have a Swing Thread, and you've received some specific advice, as well as some advice about practicing specifically to chance the picture.  I'd guess that most golfers don't have a specific "priority piece" that they're working on, based on competent instruction, and if they do, they're not doing the type of work, slow, specific, that will allow them to make the change most efficiently.  So they might think they're practicing, but there's not doing it effectively.  And I think that this is true across the broad spectrum of skill levels.

Very true. I most certainly posed that question from within the confines of my own specific situation, rather than from the perspective of the universe outside my head. :)

[JonMA1]

21 minutes ago, Slugox said:

Very true. I most certainly posed that question from within the confines of my own specific situation, rather than from the perspective of the universe outside my head. :)

I think your point (and my point) was that regardless of the quality of practice, you are out there trying to improve your full swing, correct? In other words, the intent is there.

I'm not sure what options you have as far as practice facilities, but at the courses where I play, I just don't see that many people practicing their short game compared to those taking full swings. Maybe they practice their short game at home.... I don't really know.

[Slugox]

Oh no question. The vast majority of my time is spent on the full swing, and that's what I see others doing as well.

[Lihu]

2 hours ago, DaveP043 said:

I know you have a Swing Thread, and you've received some specific advice, as well as some advice about practicing specifically to chance the picture.  I'd guess that most golfers don't have a specific "priority piece" that they're working on, based on competent instruction, and if they do, they're not doing the type of work, slow, specific, that will allow them to make the change most efficiently.  So they might think they're practicing, but there's not doing it effectively.  And I think that this is true across the broad spectrum of skill levels.

This is true. The ones that improve are the ones who are working on specific drills then taking those drills to the range. No one is perfect at "practicing", but the ones who can do it better are typically the ones who improve.

 

4 hours ago, Slugox said:

If you're working on grip, stance, setup to improve quality of ballstriking, is that not effective practicing.

If you are just hitting them and not putting any thought into them and not changing anything and not doing your drills between shots, it's a complete waste of time. Ball striking is meaningless if you don't have the swing to back it.

 

1 hour ago, Slugox said:

Oh no question. The vast majority of my time is spent on the full swing, and that's what I see others doing as well.

Agree, most people I see around the course know that this is their glaring weakness so they work on it.

 

5 hours ago, JonMA1 said:

Thanks for the acknowledgment and information, Erik.

I would have thought it fairly simple as well, but this topic and some of the posts indicate many of us have trouble.

I'd also emphasize "fairly".

Most people can't assess their own games very well, much less compare themselves against another person. If they're delusional about how well they hit their own shots, then imagine them comparing themselves to someone else?

If your long game is better, you'll typically be 30 yards or more further from the tee box than the person you are assessing yourself against. So, in that sense it could be pretty obvious.

 

Quote

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I'll go back to something I said earlier in the topic. It's a small sampling, but most of the guys I know at my level say one thing and do the other. They may talk about how important the short game is, but work more on their long games. I believe the reason is that they hear "drive for show...." from pros and better players, so they feel confident in repeating it. At the same time, they recognize what are costing them strokes and work on that at the range. I think deep down, they're closet LSW readers. 

Probably, but, while LSW is groundbreaking, it really shouldn't be an epiphany that long game affects your overall game a heck of a lot more than short game.

 

Quote

I asked this a while back and didn't get a response so I'll ask it again to anyone. Given the same opportunity to practice either, does the average high capper really practice more of their short game than long game?

Almost all of the ones I see practice long game more. I haven't met any though I will accept that others have seen people who think their short game is holding them back.

What I do see are a lot of 16 or 20 handicaps say they're working on ball striking with horribly inefficient swings. That's probably just as bad. It's just watching people piddle ball after ball down the range with no purpose behind every shot. I'm not going to act superior about it because I also have that tendency and end up wasting a bucket of balls before I really start to practice.

 

Edited November 12, 2017 by Lihu

[joro]

Every day I would see at the Range people go to the Range, grab their Driver and start swinging for the fence.    Then they would go to the Putting Green, slap a few quick Putts and off to the first tee.   Their game is shot before they tee off.

Gary Player said your practice session would in thirds,  1/3 long game and 2//3s short game and Putting.    Take it for what it is worth.

 

[phillyk]

48 minutes ago, joro said:

Every day I would see at the Range people go to the Range, grab their Driver and start swinging for the fence.    Then they would go to the Putting Green, slap a few quick Putts and off to the first tee.   Their game is shot before they tee off.

Gary Player said your practice session would in thirds,  1/3 long game and 2//3s short game and Putting.    Take it for what it is worth.

 

Warming up for a round, yeah, I would probably do more short game, because I need to get accustomed to the greens.  Full swing is just getting it loose and seeing how the ball flies, not trying to do anything special or change anything.  Practicing is different.  But like we already said, if people understood how to practice effectively, they would see quicker improvement (including in the short game).