Jump to content
Check out the Spin Axis Podcast! ×
Note: This thread is 2962 days old. We appreciate that you found this thread instead of starting a new one, but if you plan to post here please make sure it's still relevant. If not, please start a new topic. Thank you!

Recommended Posts

Posted

Just joined up and this is my first post.  Sorry it's a bit long but I think it'll be interesting.

I've just come back this season after taking a good 6 years or so off.  When I stopped I was a mid to low 90's golfer and am back to that same level right now.  Took a bunch of lessons earlier in the season and got my fundamentals back in order and also worked hard on two problems the pro saw in my swing - early release and a bit of an OTT path.

I have gotten to the point where I have become a really consistent ball striker (no more flipping) and after reading LSW I have spent the last few weeks trying to control the curve of my shots.  I was typically hitting draws with the occasional hook or push but doing so without really trying to do it intentionally.  I've tried to shape pretty much every shot the last few rounds and at the range (except wedges) to see which ball flight suits me best.  I've also tried to study ball flight laws to diagnose what's happening on each swing.

I've been slicing with the driver and sometimes my other clubs as well ever since I started trying to shape shots.  Played a round 2 days ago and the slice was still there mainly with the driver.  Starts out at the target and trails off to the right.  Although I was able to keep my irons and hybrids straight, the impact just didn't feel as solid as usual. To try and get through the round, I began gripping the club with the face slightly closed and aiming to the right until the face was square with my target and lo and behold, I began to hit some great shots with my irons and hybrids.  Dead straight and sometimes a nice draw.  But the driver except for two holes which I managed to bomb it straight down the fairway continued to slice into the right rough or trees.  Just could not feel like the face was turning over.  I diagnosed it as not making a full shoulder turn which was partly true as it was really cold out and as a result my swing got short and jerky.

In my practice sessions I could not control that draw.  I could draw it, but could never get it to start right and come back to the target.  I was always 10-15-20 yards right or left of my intended target.  Had more success with the fade but even that would eventually turn into a slice after a while.

Went to the range yesterday and hit some balls the way I did on the course (closed stance and closed clubface) and continued to hit all the clubs great.  Dead straight, great distance with the very occasional pull or pull hook.  Then I get to the driver...

Hit it a LOT better with the improved shoulder turn but every 2-3 shots that darn slice crept in.  Still in all was pretty happy but couldn't stop thinking about where that darn slice came from.

So back to the ball flight laws...seems that a shot that starts out at the target then moves right comes from a face that is square to the target but a path that is out to in.  It then dawned on me that I have a problem with my path with all my clubs.  By closing the face and aiming right I was compensating for my OTT swing and essentially have a fade/slice swing but setting up to draw it as a compensation.  And as usual, you can get away with it until you get to the big stick.

My question is, do I just learn to play this way or do I fix the path?  The reason I ask is this is a scenario that plays out over and over again in my game.  I can fix the path and it will last for some time and I will eventually start to hook the ball and push it; alter my path to be more out to in so I can swing left of the target and begin slicing, rinse and repeat.

I feel like I'm at a crossroads with my swing.  Play with the flaw or try and fix it for good?  I'm never going to turn pro and I don't keep a handicap.  Just trying to shoot lower scores.  I'm your high handicapper who hits the ball much better than his scores indicate.  Distance is not an issue for me.  My iron distance is comparable to the pros and I can drive it 275-290 when I'm hitting it well.  I'm pretty sure I can learn to control the slice with the driver and aim down the left side and not lose too much distance.

I wish I can get some video up but I just can't right now but I think I have a more natural steep swing that is more fit for a fade swing.  I was fit for clubs this past summer and the fitter put me in S-Grind Vokey wedges because he said my angle of attack is pretty steep.  I typically hit my irons really well and struggle with my woods from time to time.  That said, if fixing the path is the right thing to do then that is what I'll work on.  For me it's mostly about my right shoulder working out instead of down when I start the downswing.

Thanks for reading and looking forward to the advice.

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Posted

Like u, i like to test on the range different club path a face angles in orther to produce a consistent type of ball fligth.
I ve been doing this in the last 2 years. Before that i always played a pull-fade with an outside to inside swing path with a square face at address.

At this moment my most consistent shot it´s a push-draw with an inside to outside swing path, hit down on the ball with a closed face.
This works perfect for my mid to short irons. But long irons fly really low and i want to hit up on the ball with driver so this isn´t an option. So i have to have 2 swings, that´s not ideal.
The other problem is that it´s hard to close the face of the club exactly the same degres every time in orther to be consistent.

How i solved it? with a stronger grip. I make a practice swing and stop at the ball, I look at the face angle and regrip the club in orther that the club it´s perpendicular to the target, my swing always make the face angle to be open at impact. That´s it. with that new grip i know that my hand will close the face of the club the exact amount i need in order to hit the draw. I tried it hitting it down and up on the ball and works like a charm with every club in the bag.

Keep trying new things till you get the results you want.

  

 

  • Like 1
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

  • Administrator
Posted

Get some lessons from a good instructor, or at the very least, start a Member Swing topic here. Or I guess even a little "least" than that, record it and look at what you're doing yourself.

Feel ain't real.

Oh, and if you can't find a good instructor nearby… http://evolvr.com/

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instruction Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins
Golf Digest "Best Young Teachers in America" 2016-17 & "Best in State" 2017-20 • WNY Section PGA Teacher of the Year 2019 :edel: :true_linkswear:

Check Out: New Topics | TST Blog | Golf Terms | Instructional Content | Analyzr | LSW | Instructional Droplets

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Posted

If you have a push draw pattern the cool thing is the new term is overdraw which has a less negative connotation than hook.  So no dealing with negative feelings...:-P

A slice will always be a slice.


  • Administrator
Posted
15 minutes ago, Jack Watson said:

A slice will always be a slice.

Plenty of people call a slice a "power fade."

How about actually trying to help people, eh @Jack Watson?

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instruction Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins
Golf Digest "Best Young Teachers in America" 2016-17 & "Best in State" 2017-20 • WNY Section PGA Teacher of the Year 2019 :edel: :true_linkswear:

Check Out: New Topics | TST Blog | Golf Terms | Instructional Content | Analyzr | LSW | Instructional Droplets

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Posted

I can't offer much.

I would say this.  Play a round where every shot is just 70 percent-just dink it around.

I know many players who would kill for a nice reliable fade. 


  • Moderator
Posted
1 hour ago, Jack Watson said:

If you have a push draw pattern the cool thing is the new term is overdraw which has a less negative connotation than hook.  So no dealing with negative feelings...:-P

A slice will always be a slice.

I've always distinguished the two as separate flights. An over-draw is a push or straight shot that draws too far off target due to the path. The height of the shot is normal and will hold a green if you can hit it but it's hard to play consistently well with. Miss is a straight push, giving you a two way miss.

A hook to me is more of a low draw, similar to a duck hook but not as extreme. Runs when it lands. Useful at times but only if you're planning on it.

I played with an over-draw for a long time and missed greens left to accommodate being able to miss them right, but I didn't really hit hooks. A lot of people just associate missing left with hooks though so I'm probably alone in making that distinction. 

Bill

“By three methods we may learn wisdom: First, by reflection, which is noblest; Second, by imitation, which is easiest; and third by experience, which is the bitterest.” - Confucius

My Swing Thread

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Posted
2 minutes ago, billchao said:

I've always distinguished the two as separate flights. An over-draw is a push or straight shot that draws too far off target due to the path. The height of the shot is normal and will hold a green if you can hit it but it's hard to play consistently well with. Miss is a straight push, giving you a two way miss.

A hook to me is more of a low draw, similar to a duck hook but not as extreme. Runs when it lands. Useful at times but only if you're planning on it.

I played with an over-draw for a long time and missed greens left to accommodate being able to miss them right, but I didn't really hit hooks. A lot of people just associate missing left with hooks though so I'm probably alone in making that distinction

I certainly join you in making that distinction.  A closed club face that goes low with a pull hook is very different than a high shot that starts straight or with a push then curves a lot.  Where I don’t join you is with the terminology.  I hit a fair amount of what you call an “overdraw” but I like to call that a hook more so than the low running shot.  For me if it moves enough to get you in trouble then it’s a hook, otherwise it’s a draw.  I even call it a hook if it’s a good shot that starts way left (left handed) and ends up on target.  A draw just moves a few yards.

The other shot I call a low-crappy-running-pull-hook-heading-straight-for-the-water.  Although I may intentionally make that shot when behind trees.  Your way is probably better.

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

  • Moderator
Posted
13 minutes ago, allenc said:

For me if it moves enough to get you in trouble then it’s a hook, otherwise it’s a draw.

To be fair you can hit a 5 yard draw in trouble if you weren't playing for it.

The shot I'm describing is a maybe a 15 or 20 yard draw with a 7I. It was perfectly playable if I didn't have to aim to also allow a 10 yard push. I don't know, I think most people would say a 20 yard draw is a hook but to me a hook is not a playable pattern, that's the distinction.

Anyway none of this helps @hespeler, so I'm sorry for derailing your topic. To answer your original question, if you really want to get better at this game, you'll want to improve your swing or you'll likely continue to play with the same misses in some form or another.

Bill

“By three methods we may learn wisdom: First, by reflection, which is noblest; Second, by imitation, which is easiest; and third by experience, which is the bitterest.” - Confucius

My Swing Thread

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Posted
10 hours ago, colin007 said:

What's a "draw"?

:whistle:

Isn't it that thing you do with pencils and crayons? :-P

Russ, from "sunny" Yorkshire = :-( 

In the bag: Driver: Ping G5 , Woods:Dunlop NZ9, 4 Hybrid: Tayormade Burner, 4-SW: Hippo Beast Bi-Metal , Wedges: Wilson 1200, Putter: Cleveland Smartsquare Blade, Ball: AD333

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Posted
15 hours ago, iacas said:

Get some lessons from a good instructor, or at the very least, start a Member Swing topic here. Or I guess even a little "least" than that, record it and look at what you're doing yourself.

Feel ain't real.

Oh, and if you can't find a good instructor nearby… http://evolvr.com/

Yes, definitely.

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Posted
On 11/14/2017 at 8:26 AM, RussUK said:

Isn't it that thing you do with pencils and crayons? :-P

Oh right, it's been so long..

Colin P.

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Note: This thread is 2962 days old. We appreciate that you found this thread instead of starting a new one, but if you plan to post here please make sure it's still relevant. If not, please start a new topic. Thank you!

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now


  • Want to join this community?

    We'd love to have you!

    Sign Up
  • TST Partners

    PlayBetter
    Golfer's Journal
    ShotScope
    The Stack System
    FitForGolf
    FlightScope Mevo
    Direct: Mevo, Mevo+, and Pro Package.

    Coupon Codes (save 10-20%): "IACAS" for Mevo/Stack/FitForGolf, "IACASPLUS" for Mevo+/Pro Package, and "THESANDTRAP" for ShotScope. 15% off TourStriker (no code).
  • Posts

    • Please see this topic for updated information:
    • When you've been teaching golf as long as I have, you're going to find that you can teach some things better than you previously had, and you're probably going to find some things that you taught incorrectly. I don't see that as a bad thing — what would be worse is refusing to adapt and grow given new information. I've always said that my goal with my instruction isn't to be right, but it's to get things right. To that end, I'm about five years late in issuing a public proclamation on something… When I first got my GEARS system, I immediately looked at the golf swings of the dozens and dozens of Tour players for which I suddenly had full 3D data. I created a huge spreadsheet showing how their bodies moved, how the club moved, at various points in the swing. I mapped knee and elbow angles, hand speeds, shoulder turns and pelvis turns… etc. I re-considered what I thought I knew about the golf swing as performed by the best players. One of those things dated back to the earliest days: that you extend (I never taught "straighten" and would avoid using that word unless in the context of saying "don't fully straighten") the trail knee/leg in the backswing. I was mislead by 2D photos from less-than-ideal camera angles — the trail leg rotates a bit during the backswing, and so when observing trail knee flex should also use a camera that moves to stay perpendicular to the plane of the ankle/knee/hip joint. We have at least two topics here on this (here and here; both of which I'll be updating after publishing this) where @mvmac and I advise golfers to extend the trail knee. Learning that this was not right is one of the reasons I'm glad to have a 3D system, as most golfers generally preserve the trail knee flex throughout the backswing. Data Here's a video showing an iron and a driver of someone who has won the career slam: Here's what the graph of his right knee flex looks like. The solid lines I've positioned at the top of the backswing (GEARS aligns both swings at impact, the dashed line). Address is to the right, of course, and the graph shows knee flex from the two swings above. The data (17.56° and 23.20°) shows where this player is in both swings (orange being the yellow iron swing, pink the blue driver swing). You can see that this golfer extends his trail knee 2-3°… before bending it even more than that through the late backswing and early downswing. Months ago I created a quick Instagram video showing the trail knee flex in the backswing of several players (see the top for the larger number): Erik J. Barzeski (@iacas) • Instagram reel GEARS shares expert advice on golf swing technique, focusing on the critical backswing phase. Tour winners and major champions reveal the key to a precise and powerful swing, highlighting the importance of... Here are a few more graphs. Two LIV players and major champions: Two PGA Tour winners: Two women's #1 ranked players: Two more PGA Tour winners (one a major champ): Two former #1s, the left one being a woman, the right a man, with a driver: Two more PGA Tour players: You'll notice a trend: they almost all maintain roughly the same flex throughout their backswing and downswing. The Issues with Extending the Trail Knee You can play good golf extending (again, not "straightening") the trail knee. Some Tour players do. But, as with many things, if 95 out of 100 Tour players do it, you're most likely better off doing similarly to what they do. So, what are the issues with extending the trail knee in the backswing? To list a few: Pelvic Depth and Rotation Quality Suffers When the trail knee extends, the trail leg often acts like an axle on the backswing, with the pelvis rotating around the leg and the trail hip joint. This prevents the trail side from gaining depth, as is needed to keep the pelvis center from thrusting toward the ball. Most of the "early extension" (thrust) that I see occurs during the backswing. Encourages Early Extension (Thrust) Patterns When you've thrust and turned around the trail hip joint in the backswing, you often thrust a bit more in the downswing as the direction your pelvis is oriented is forward and "out" (to the right for a righty). Your trail leg can abduct to push you forward, but "forward" when your pelvis is turned like that is in the "thrust" direction. Additionally, the trail knee "breaking" again at the start of the downswing often jumps the trail hip out toward the ball a bit too much or too quickly. While the trail hip does move in that direction, if it's too fast or too much, it can prevent the lead side hip from getting "back" at the right rate, or at a rate commensurate with the trail hip to keep the pelvis center from thrusting. Disrupts the Pressure Shift/Transition When the trail leg extends too much, it often can't "push" forward normally. The forward push begins much earlier than forward motion begins — pushing forward begins as early as about P1.5 to P2 in the swings of most good golfers. It can push forward by abducting, again, but that's a weaker movement that shoves the pelvis forward (toward the target) and turns it more than it generally should (see the next point). Limits Internal Rotation of the Trail Hip Internal rotation of the trail hip is a sort of "limiter" on the backswing. I have seen many golfers on GEARS whose trail knee extends, whose pelvis shifts forward (toward the target), and who turn over 50°, 60°, and rarely but not never, over 70° in the backswing. If you turn 60° in the backswing, it's going to be almost impossible to get "open enough" in the downswing to arrive at a good impact position. Swaying/Lateral Motion Occasionally a golfer who extends the trail knee too much will shift back too far, but more often the issue is that the golfer will shift forward too early in the backswing (sometimes even immediately to begin the backswing), leaving them "stuck forward" to begin the downswing. They'll push forward, stop, and have to restart around P4, disrupting the smooth sequence often seen in the game's best players. Other Bits… Reduces ground reaction force potential, compromises spine inclination and posture, makes transition sequencing harder, increases stress on the trail knee and lower back… In short… It's not athletic. We don't do many athletic things with "straight" or very extended legs (unless it's the end of the action, like a jump or a big push off like a step in a running motion).
    • Day 135 12-25 Wide backswing to wide downswing drill. Recorder and used mirror. 
    • Day 6 - 2025-12-25 10 minutes of swing work on the mat and net. Focus on turn and weight shift.
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

Welcome to TST! Signing up is free, and you'll see fewer ads and can talk with fellow golf enthusiasts! By using TST, you agree to our Terms of Use, our Privacy Policy, and our Guidelines.