Play Fade or Fix Path?

[hespeler]

Just joined up and this is my first post.  Sorry it's a bit long but I think it'll be interesting.

I've just come back this season after taking a good 6 years or so off.  When I stopped I was a mid to low 90's golfer and am back to that same level right now.  Took a bunch of lessons earlier in the season and got my fundamentals back in order and also worked hard on two problems the pro saw in my swing - early release and a bit of an OTT path.

I have gotten to the point where I have become a really consistent ball striker (no more flipping) and after reading LSW I have spent the last few weeks trying to control the curve of my shots.  I was typically hitting draws with the occasional hook or push but doing so without really trying to do it intentionally.  I've tried to shape pretty much every shot the last few rounds and at the range (except wedges) to see which ball flight suits me best.  I've also tried to study ball flight laws to diagnose what's happening on each swing.

I've been slicing with the driver and sometimes my other clubs as well ever since I started trying to shape shots.  Played a round 2 days ago and the slice was still there mainly with the driver.  Starts out at the target and trails off to the right.  Although I was able to keep my irons and hybrids straight, the impact just didn't feel as solid as usual. To try and get through the round, I began gripping the club with the face slightly closed and aiming to the right until the face was square with my target and lo and behold, I began to hit some great shots with my irons and hybrids.  Dead straight and sometimes a nice draw.  But the driver except for two holes which I managed to bomb it straight down the fairway continued to slice into the right rough or trees.  Just could not feel like the face was turning over.  I diagnosed it as not making a full shoulder turn which was partly true as it was really cold out and as a result my swing got short and jerky.

In my practice sessions I could not control that draw.  I could draw it, but could never get it to start right and come back to the target.  I was always 10-15-20 yards right or left of my intended target.  Had more success with the fade but even that would eventually turn into a slice after a while.

Went to the range yesterday and hit some balls the way I did on the course (closed stance and closed clubface) and continued to hit all the clubs great.  Dead straight, great distance with the very occasional pull or pull hook.  Then I get to the driver...

Hit it a LOT better with the improved shoulder turn but every 2-3 shots that darn slice crept in.  Still in all was pretty happy but couldn't stop thinking about where that darn slice came from.

So back to the ball flight laws...seems that a shot that starts out at the target then moves right comes from a face that is square to the target but a path that is out to in.  It then dawned on me that I have a problem with my path with all my clubs.  By closing the face and aiming right I was compensating for my OTT swing and essentially have a fade/slice swing but setting up to draw it as a compensation.  And as usual, you can get away with it until you get to the big stick.

My question is, do I just learn to play this way or do I fix the path?  The reason I ask is this is a scenario that plays out over and over again in my game.  I can fix the path and it will last for some time and I will eventually start to hook the ball and push it; alter my path to be more out to in so I can swing left of the target and begin slicing, rinse and repeat.

I feel like I'm at a crossroads with my swing.  Play with the flaw or try and fix it for good?  I'm never going to turn pro and I don't keep a handicap.  Just trying to shoot lower scores.  I'm your high handicapper who hits the ball much better than his scores indicate.  Distance is not an issue for me.  My iron distance is comparable to the pros and I can drive it 275-290 when I'm hitting it well.  I'm pretty sure I can learn to control the slice with the driver and aim down the left side and not lose too much distance.

I wish I can get some video up but I just can't right now but I think I have a more natural steep swing that is more fit for a fade swing.  I was fit for clubs this past summer and the fitter put me in S-Grind Vokey wedges because he said my angle of attack is pretty steep.  I typically hit my irons really well and struggle with my woods from time to time.  That said, if fixing the path is the right thing to do then that is what I'll work on.  For me it's mostly about my right shoulder working out instead of down when I start the downswing.

Thanks for reading and looking forward to the advice.

[p1n9183]

Like u, i like to test on the range different club path a face angles in orther to produce a consistent type of ball fligth.
I ve been doing this in the last 2 years. Before that i always played a pull-fade with an outside to inside swing path with a square face at address.

At this moment my most consistent shot it´s a push-draw with an inside to outside swing path, hit down on the ball with a closed face.
This works perfect for my mid to short irons. But long irons fly really low and i want to hit up on the ball with driver so this isn´t an option. So i have to have 2 swings, that´s not ideal.
The other problem is that it´s hard to close the face of the club exactly the same degres every time in orther to be consistent.

How i solved it? with a stronger grip. I make a practice swing and stop at the ball, I look at the face angle and regrip the club in orther that the club it´s perpendicular to the target, my swing always make the face angle to be open at impact. That´s it. with that new grip i know that my hand will close the face of the club the exact amount i need in order to hit the draw. I tried it hitting it down and up on the ball and works like a charm with every club in the bag.

Keep trying new things till you get the results you want.

  

 

[iacas]

Get some lessons from a good instructor, or at the very least, start a Member Swing topic here. Or I guess even a little "least" than that, record it and look at what you're doing yourself.

Feel ain't real.

Oh, and if you can't find a good instructor nearby… http://evolvr.com/

[Jack Watson]

If you have a push draw pattern the cool thing is the new term is overdraw which has a less negative connotation than hook.  So no dealing with negative feelings...

A slice will always be a slice.

[iacas]

15 minutes ago, Jack Watson said:

A slice will always be a slice.

Plenty of people call a slice a "power fade."

How about actually trying to help people, eh @Jack Watson?

[Jack Watson]

I can't offer much.

I would say this.  Play a round where every shot is just 70 percent-just dink it around.

I know many players who would kill for a nice reliable fade. 

[billchao]

1 hour ago, Jack Watson said:

If you have a push draw pattern the cool thing is the new term is overdraw which has a less negative connotation than hook.  So no dealing with negative feelings...

A slice will always be a slice.

I've always distinguished the two as separate flights. An over-draw is a push or straight shot that draws too far off target due to the path. The height of the shot is normal and will hold a green if you can hit it but it's hard to play consistently well with. Miss is a straight push, giving you a two way miss.

A hook to me is more of a low draw, similar to a duck hook but not as extreme. Runs when it lands. Useful at times but only if you're planning on it.

I played with an over-draw for a long time and missed greens left to accommodate being able to miss them right, but I didn't really hit hooks. A lot of people just associate missing left with hooks though so I'm probably alone in making that distinction. 

[allenc]

2 minutes ago, billchao said:

I've always distinguished the two as separate flights. An over-draw is a push or straight shot that draws too far off target due to the path. The height of the shot is normal and will hold a green if you can hit it but it's hard to play consistently well with. Miss is a straight push, giving you a two way miss.

A hook to me is more of a low draw, similar to a duck hook but not as extreme. Runs when it lands. Useful at times but only if you're planning on it.

I played with an over-draw for a long time and missed greens left to accommodate being able to miss them right, but I didn't really hit hooks. A lot of people just associate missing left with hooks though so I'm probably alone in making that distinction. 

I certainly join you in making that distinction.  A closed club face that goes low with a pull hook is very different than a high shot that starts straight or with a push then curves a lot.  Where I don’t join you is with the terminology.  I hit a fair amount of what you call an “overdraw” but I like to call that a hook more so than the low running shot.  For me if it moves enough to get you in trouble then it’s a hook, otherwise it’s a draw.  I even call it a hook if it’s a good shot that starts way left (left handed) and ends up on target.  A draw just moves a few yards.

The other shot I call a low-crappy-running-pull-hook-heading-straight-for-the-water.  Although I may intentionally make that shot when behind trees.  Your way is probably better.

[billchao]

13 minutes ago, allenc said:

For me if it moves enough to get you in trouble then it’s a hook, otherwise it’s a draw.

To be fair you can hit a 5 yard draw in trouble if you weren't playing for it.

The shot I'm describing is a maybe a 15 or 20 yard draw with a 7I. It was perfectly playable if I didn't have to aim to also allow a 10 yard push. I don't know, I think most people would say a 20 yard draw is a hook but to me a hook is not a playable pattern, that's the distinction.

Anyway none of this helps @hespeler, so I'm sorry for derailing your topic. To answer your original question, if you really want to get better at this game, you'll want to improve your swing or you'll likely continue to play with the same misses in some form or another.

[colin007]

What's a "draw"?

[RussUK]

10 hours ago, colin007 said:

What's a "draw"?

Isn't it that thing you do with pencils and crayons?

[hespeler]

15 hours ago, iacas said:

Get some lessons from a good instructor, or at the very least, start a Member Swing topic here. Or I guess even a little "least" than that, record it and look at what you're doing yourself.

Feel ain't real.

Oh, and if you can't find a good instructor nearby… http://evolvr.com/

Yes, definitely.

[colin007]

On 11/14/2017 at 8:26 AM, RussUK said:

Isn't it that thing you do with pencils and crayons?

Oh right, it's been so long..