No Traffic Signs, Lights - Shared Spaces

[nevets88]

One can start small in simplifying and making conditions safer, like LPIs. Leading Pedestrian Intervals.

 

[Jack Watson]

This looks great!  Very efficient!

The best part is that you slow down so it takes you three times as long to go places!

Brilliant!

Edited November 25, 2017 by Jack Watson

[iacas]

3 minutes ago, Jack Watson said:

This looks great!  Very efficient!

That's actually probably more efficient than if they had lights or signs and forced people to stop properly with tickets. We've all been at lights where they didn't optimize for traffic, and let's say the traffic is 75/25 but the lights are 50/50, so you get nobody going through a green light one way, and then people not making it through a cycle or two of greens in the other direction.

It's just an incredibly crowded intersection. Lights would probably make it worse.

---

We all have experience with Shared Spaces: consider golf carts in the parking lot and/or around the clubhouse. You have a mixture of walkers, carts, cars, staff, etc. Very rarely do we find accidents occurring here, despite the lack of signs. Ditto parking lots - a shared space with very little signage. People can be jerks and walk down the center of the aisle, but we still don't just run them over. Cars are backing out, others are waiting, sometimes a jerk pulls past a car backing out, but they don't often result in crashes, etc.

[Jack Watson]

Omg @iacas not you! 

This is a great shared space look in reality

 

[iacas]

Just now, Jack Watson said:

Omg @iacas not you! 

This is a great shared space look in reality

Nobody's saying it works everywhere.

Those streets are way too congested for their width/size/space.

And yet, like I said above, it may be better than having lights and such. More people may actually get through that intersection this way than otherwise.

[Jack Watson]

Or  we could have rules and all take turns like in a non third world country

 

[iacas]

2 minutes ago, Jack Watson said:

Or  we could have rules and all take turns like in a non third world country

 

You're not contributing to the conversation. You're posting one-off examples.

Yippee.

You have two minutes left to fix your member map marker.

[saevel25]

On the subject of traffic timing. Especially coordination. The tough thing about traffic light progression is that if you are going the way with lighter traffic volume you are basically screwed. You'll be hard pressed to make it through a few lights before catching one. 

The issue with pedestrian timing is that it adds timing to the side streets if you want to give them pedestrian signals. 

Lets say your primary street is 66 ft wide (5 - 11 ft lanes). Your side street is 22 ft wide (2 - 11 ft lanes). If you have pedestrian signals then your side street needs to accommodate 18.8 seconds of flash don't walk time. That isn't accommodating the walk symbol you see. You could look at 25-30 seconds for pedestrians. Yet, that side street might only need 14 seconds (8 minimum green, 4 seconds of yellow time, and 2 seconds of all red). 

Then if you want to add pushbuttons for the pedestrians, on an as need basis, then you screw up coordination. Because as soon as you have someone push the button it will increase the length of time given to the side street. Coordination is based on having same timing, knowing the distance between the streets and timing the greens to match when vehicles show up. You mess up one of those times, and it throws a wrench into the whole progression for a few cycles. 

Traffic timing is very complicated and hard to balance what priorities are needed for cars and pedestrians. 

If you are able to have a more free-flowing situations then you negate stop and start times and keep things moving. Ideally they are more efficient. 

[jsgolfer]

3 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

Traffic timing is very complicated and hard to balance what priorities are needed for cars and pedestrians. 

If you are able to have a more free-flowing situations then you negate stop and start times and keep things moving. Ideally they are more efficient. 

Complicated and hard to balance is an understatement. 

+1 to more free flowing situations.

[nevets88]

5 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

On the subject of traffic timing. Especially coordination. The tough thing about traffic light progression is that if you are going the way with lighter traffic volume you are basically screwed. You'll be hard pressed to make it through a few lights before catching one. 

The issue with pedestrian timing is that it adds timing to the side streets if you want to give them pedestrian signals. 

Lets say your primary street is 66 ft wide (5 - 11 ft lanes). Your side street is 22 ft wide (2 - 11 ft lanes). If you have pedestrian signals then your side street needs to accommodate 18.8 seconds of flash don't walk time. That isn't accommodating the walk symbol you see. You could look at 25-30 seconds for pedestrians. Yet, that side street might only need 14 seconds (8 minimum green, 4 seconds of yellow time, and 2 seconds of all red). 

Then if you want to add pushbuttons for the pedestrians, on an as need basis, then you screw up coordination. Because as soon as you have someone push the button it will increase the length of time given to the side street. Coordination is based on having same timing, knowing the distance between the streets and timing the greens to match when vehicles show up. You mess up one of those times, and it throws a wrench into the whole progression for a few cycles. 

Traffic timing is very complicated and hard to balance what priorities are needed for cars and pedestrians. 

If you are able to have a more free-flowing situations then you negate stop and start times and keep things moving. Ideally they are more efficient. 

Thanks for sharing that, yeah, that sounds a bit much. 

I looked up the Coventry death, here are some links.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-coventry-warwickshire-17038711

http://www.coventrytelegraph.net/news/coventry-news/crossing-confusion-after-coventry-bus-2823343

 

[jsgolfer]

https://fee.org/articles/dropping-traffic-rules-and-signs-would-make-us-safer/

 

 

[David in FL]

What happens when you inevitably have the occasional knucklehead who decides that everyone else can just get out of his way and an accident results?  

Is anyone accountable when there are no rules of right-away?

[saevel25]

2 minutes ago, David in FL said:

Is anyone accountable when there are no rules of right-away?

We already have accountability rules when there is an intersection with no traffic control. The person on the left yields to the person on the right. This is basic driver's ed stuff. 

[David in FL]

16 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

We already have accountability rules when there is an intersection with no traffic control. The person on the left yields to the person on the right. This is basic driver's ed stuff. 

Because there a rules in place to determine the right of way, and who yields to whom.

Unless I'm missing something, no such rules exist in the shared space.

[iacas]

3 minutes ago, David in FL said:

Unless I'm missing something, no such rules exist in the shared space.

Yes they do. The same rules apply as an intersection in a neighborhood, or the intersection when a traffic light goes out with a power outage, or whatever.

[nevets88]

1 hour ago, saevel25 said:

We already have accountability rules when there is an intersection with no traffic control. The person on the left yields to the person on the right. This is basic driver's ed stuff. 

I follow this rule and in my area, when I yield, people are flabbergasted and sometimes annoyed I don't go first. 

[colin007]

I was told in drivers ed that there's no such thing a "right of way".

[David in FL]

1 hour ago, iacas said:

Yes they do. The same rules apply as an intersection in a neighborhood, or the intersection when a traffic light goes out with a power outage, or whatever.

Yeah, I know how to drive too.

I'm talking about the shared space examples in the video in your OP.

There's no indication of any "rules" other than seemingly, everyone naturally takes additional care.  So what happens when someone doesn't "take care"?  

 

59 minutes ago, colin007 said:

I was told in drivers ed that there's no such thing a "right of way".

I hope you didn't pay money for that class!    

Of course there is.  Just run a red light and hit someone who had a green light to find the consequences of violating that particular law.