New Rules for Video Call-Ins

[NM Golf]

4 minutes ago, iacas said:

Or do the rules officials just say "we went back and looked at the video, as we do, and we noticed this" while giving no credit to the "tweeters-in"?

Which is what I think they should have done the whole time. I don't actually think many people have literally CALLED in. I think most of the "callers" have been closely associated with the tournament. They knew who to reach on the grounds.

Exactly, I still believe people will have some influence over rules infractions via social media and the like, but the rules officials just won't let on where the magic information came from. No way they sit on information about a rules infraction and do nothing about it, talk about opening a can of worms!

[iacas]

2 minutes ago, Groucho Valentine said:

It doesn't matter if the public catches a infraction and the tournament committee does not. Its none of the publics business.

:sigh:

It is the public's business. I addressed that comment earlier. And the PGA Tour has a very real interest in making sure the public believes the competition is well conducted. If people known to have breached the rules start winning events, the PGA Tour loses credibility.

2 minutes ago, Groucho Valentine said:

We live with missed calls in ever other sport

Golf is not every other sport. Other sports don't make it the responsibility of the players to enforce the rules on themselves and others. Golf does.

2 minutes ago, Groucho Valentine said:

Human errors are inevitable and unpreventable.

They're more preventable when you accept input from a wider range.

[NM Golf]

5 minutes ago, Groucho Valentine said:

Its truth, homey! We must be accurate! 

It doesn't matter if the public catches a infraction and the tournament committee does not. Its none of the publics business. We live with missed calls in ever other sport but seem to have this puritanical belief that the competition must be 100% snow pure in golf. Human errors are inevitable and unpreventable. I can live with it. 

First, good god please do not call me homey . And it does matter, golf is not like any other sports, it is possible to catch 99% of rules infractions, especially for the leaders of the tournament. If you can do that, why wouldn't you? What is the benefit to the sport of golf to NOT catch when rules are broken. Seems odd to me that anyone would want that. It doesn't have to be 100% pure, but shouldn't we strive to be as good as we can be? Other sports like baseball and football have gone to great lengths to try and do away with these types of errors through instant replay, and golf puts in a new rule to do the opposite, it looks bad.

[Lihu]

3 minutes ago, NM Golf said:

And it does matter, golf is not like any other sports, it is possible to catch 99% of rules infractions, especially for the leaders of the tournament. If you can do that, why wouldn't you? What is the benefit to the sport of golf to NOT catch when rules are broken. Seems odd to me that anyone would want that. It doesn't have to be 100% pure, but shouldn't we strive to be as good as we can be? Other sports like baseball and football have gone to great lengths to try and do away with these types of errors through instant replay, and golf puts in a new rule to do the opposite, it looks bad.

I don't actually think this is the case. I think they'll still take "call ins", but just not tell anyone nor are obligated to tell anyone who was the source. It will likely give more players, caddies or whoever the ability to call in without any repercussions. It would effectively eliminate the "controversies".

 

3 minutes ago, NM Golf said:

First, good god please do not call me homey .

I misread this as "honey"

[Nutsmacker]

16 minutes ago, Groucho Valentine said:

It doesn't matter if the public catches a infraction and the tournament committee does not. Its none of the publics business. We live with missed calls in ever other sport but seem to have this puritanical belief that the competition must be 100% snow pure in golf. Human errors are inevitable and unpreventable. I can live with it. 

Holy smokes - I can hardly believe that you play golf.  You do understand that Golf is not like any other sport where the onus of the penalty is on the golfer themselves; don't you?  You are a +1 handicap with this mentality?  You must have played golf for your entire life and the fact that you have such a casual interpretation of the game/rules is somewhat alarming.  I am not even sure what you are in fact defending...it seems like you are really pushing for the bending of the rules which is what this new ruling is going to allow.  Congratulations...you can now move your ball around on the green and plead ignorance at the end of the tournament when someone calls you out on it.  

[rehmwa]

7 minutes ago, Lihu said:

I don't actually think this is the case. I think they'll still take "call ins", but just not tell anyone nor are obligated to tell anyone who was the source. It will likely give more players, caddies or whoever the ability to call in without any repercussions. It would effectively eliminate the "controversies"

There it is, in application, this works.  And really should be how it was done in the first place.

So the announcement is really a PR tactic to just let us move on and stop the whining.

I believe this.  The real response to the now 'informal' call ins will be to still listen and note the observation and reply "thanks for the info, we got this".  And the communication to the world is simply - "our video team review the shot and noted _____ and informed the player".  People that call in would be classy to not point out that they called in and then later that shot was reviewed.  They should be happy regardless of whether it was them or someone else as long as the shot got attention.

The only thing with meat in it is deleting the 2 extra penalty strokes when these reviewers are just too slow to let the player know before the sign off.  If a player even gets informed that he's under a video review, he just doesn't sign the card until it's resolved or he gets an all clear.  At this point, the card signing is pointless.  Let the tournament keep score.  Or at least, all players should just refuse to sign off until they get some kind of all clear from the video guys.

[Lihu]

4 minutes ago, rehmwa said:

The only thing with meat in it is deleting the 2 extra penalty strokes when these reviewers are just too slow to let the player know before the sign off.  If a player even gets informed that he's under a video review, he just doesn't sign the card until it's resolved or he gets an all clear.  At this point, the card signing is pointless.  Let the tournament keep score.  Or at least, all players should just refuse to sign off until they get some kind of all clear from the video guys.

Exactly! That's certainly what I'd do.

[NM Golf]

4 minutes ago, rehmwa said:

At this point, the card signing is pointless.  Let the tournament keep score.  Or at least, all players should just refuse to sign off until they get some kind of all clear from the video guys.

Interesting take, at what point do scorecards become obsolete on the PGA Tour? I mean everyone knows what these guys shot, hell we know the exact distance and direction of every shot they hit. Hmmm

[DaveP043]

4 minutes ago, rehmwa said:

The only thing with meat in it is deleting the 2 extra penalty strokes when these reviewers are just too slow to let the player know before the sign off.  If a player even gets informed that he's under a video review, he just doesn't sign the card until it's resolved or he gets an all clear.  At this point, the card signing is pointless.  Let the tournament keep score.  Or at least, all players should just refuse to sign off until they get some kind of all clear from the video guys.

The players will simply sign, and head for the range or home or whatever.  There's no penalty for signing an incorrect card.  At the time he signs it, he claims that he's unaware that he committed an infraction.  If he has to add a penalty stroke or two, no big deal, its the same whether he has signed or not.

[iacas]

5 minutes ago, rehmwa said:

The only thing with meat in it is deleting the 2 extra penalty strokes when these reviewers are just too slow to let the player know before the sign off.  If a player even gets informed that he's under a video review, he just doesn't sign the card until it's resolved or he gets an all clear.  At this point, the card signing is pointless.  Let the tournament keep score.  Or at least, all players should just refuse to sign off until they get some kind of all clear from the video guys.

No. They should still be responsible for knowing the score, and attesting to it. It's important to remember, too, that not all tournaments have the scoring capabilities of the PGA Tour. This rule is being discussed as if it's entirely about the Tours, and while that's a big part of it… these rules will affect ALL of golf.

Yes, there's a bit of a tradition to it… and golf loves its traditions. But the tradition is grounded in the idea that you're signing your name as a definitive statement that "this is my score, and I attest to this."

Just now, DaveP043 said:

The players will simply sign, and head for the range or home or whatever.  There's no penalty for signing an incorrect card.  At the time he signs it, he claims that he's unaware that he committed an infraction.  If he has to add a penalty stroke or two, no big deal, its the same whether he has signed or not.

Plus, that. The removal of the two-stroke penalty, far more so than even the removal of the DQ before it, removes them of the responsibility to know the rules.

It's sad.

[Groucho Valentine]

2 hours ago, Nutsmacker said:

Holy smokes - I can hardly believe that you play golf.  You do understand that Golf is not like any other sport where the onus of the penalty is on the golfer themselves; don't you?  You are a +1 handicap with this mentality?  You must have played golf for your entire life and the fact that you have such a casual interpretation of the game/rules is somewhat alarming.  I am not even sure what you are in fact defending...it seems like you are really pushing for the bending of the rules which is what this new ruling is going to allow.  Congratulations...you can now move your ball around on the green and plead ignorance at the end of the tournament when someone calls you out on it.  

Bla bla bla. Ive been playing in national and state amateur tournaments for nearly 15 years and i have yet to even hear of a player blatantly cheating. Not even one. What were talking about is unintended or unnoticed infractions. Skill has nothing to do with that type of thing. By that reasoning all professionals should be higher than St Peter, but we know they are not. 

[Lihu]

25 minutes ago, Groucho Valentine said:

Bla bla bla. Ive been playing in national and state amateur tournaments for nearly 15 years and i have yet to even hear of a player blatantly cheating. Not even one. What were talking about is unintended or unnoticed infractions. Skill has nothing to do with that type of thing. By that reasoning all professionals should be higher than St Peter, but we know they are not. 

Right, playing skill apparently has nothing to do with this topic. We even started to alluded to some pros not knowing all the rules, and possibly using that "ignorance" as a strategy to turn in incorrect scorecards.

[Fourputt]

2 hours ago, iacas said:

No. They should still be responsible for knowing the score, and attesting to it. It's important to remember, too, that not all tournaments have the scoring capabilities of the PGA Tour. This rule is being discussed as if it's entirely about the Tours, and while that's a big part of it… these rules will affect ALL of golf.

Yes, there's a bit of a tradition to it… and golf loves its traditions. But the tradition is grounded in the idea that you're signing your name as a definitive statement that "this is my score, and I attest to this."

Plus, that. The removal of the two-stroke penalty, far more so than even the removal of the DQ before it, removes them of the responsibility to know the rules.

It's sad.

I see signing the card as entering into a contract with the rest of the field, stating that you have played by the Rules of Golf and that this score was achieved in full accordance with them.  It essentially puts one's personal honor on the dotted line, and assures that any error is unintentional and that the signer will accede to any penalty assessed as a result of his mistake.  No other sport that I know of has that level of inherent personal honesty as a fundamental precept of the game, and every step away from that precept is a step down the slippery slope.

[saevel25]

1 hour ago, Groucho Valentine said:

Bla bla bla. Ive been playing in national and state amateur tournaments for nearly 15 years and i have yet to even hear of a player blatantly cheating.

1 hour ago, Groucho Valentine said:

What were talking about is unintended or unnoticed infractions. Skill has nothing to do with that type of thing. By that reasoning all professionals should be higher than St Peter, but we know they are not. 

Nope, we are talking about all rules infractions.

Tiger blatantly cheated when he dropped illegally on #15 at Augusta years ago. Here is a quote from Tiger.

Quote

So I went back to where I played it from, but I went two yards farther back and I tried to take two yards off the shot of what I felt I hit."

The upmost importance must be to protect the golfers who are actively and willingly following the rules of golf. This includes the review of rules infractions by the rules official when brought to their attention no matter what the source.

What is more unfair.

1. A golfer who played by the rules of golf losing to a guy who got away with a rules infraction because the rules official did not apply the rule due to the source.

OR

2. A golfer who is penalized for a rules infraction.

What if Matsuyama didn't get caught on video stamping down on that divot before his ball came to rest? Clearly it was an intentional action to hopefully keep his ball from returning to that divot.

[Hardluckster]

5 minutes ago, Fourputt said:

I see signing the card as entering into a contract with the rest of the field, stating that you have played by the Rules of Golf and that this score was achieved in full accordance with them.  It essentially puts one's personal honor on the dotted line, and assures that any error is unintentional and that the signer will accede to any penalty assessed as a result of his mistake.  No other sport that I know of has that level of inherent personal honesty as a fundamental precept of the game, and every step away from that precept is a step down the slippery slope.

Fourputt,

While I completely agree with your statement above, I am of the opinion that the 'scorecard contract' isn't worth the paper its written on in any tournament that adopts the new local rule excusing scorecard penalties from being assessed due simply to ignorance of the rules/penalties.  As you know, the original penalty could still be assessed but this new local rule removes additional punishment for signing a 'contract' that is in error (assuming that the golfer didn't know the penalty was required).

I think (or hope) that most golfers are of high integrity.  I feel that the vast majority are above using rules such as this as a loophole.  That said, there are golfers at every level who are willing to use just such a loophole in an attempt to win an event.  This watering down of the accountability requirement will only aid those dishonest individuals in their efforts to 'beat the system'.

Hopefully, I am wrong.  Hopefully it never happens.  I wouldn't be willing to wager that is the case, however.

[Fourputt]

8 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

Nope, we are talking about all rules infractions.

Tiger blatantly cheated when he dropped illegally on #15 at Augusta years ago. Here is a quote from Tiger.

The upmost importance must be to protect the golfers who are actively and willingly following the rules of golf. This includes the review of rules infractions by the rules official when brought to their attention no matter what the source.

What is more unfair.

1. A golfer who played by the rules of golf losing to a guy who got away with a rules infraction because the rules official did not apply the rule due to the source.

OR

2. A golfer who is penalized for a rules infraction.

What if Matsuyama didn't get caught on video stamping down on that divot before his ball came to rest? Clearly it was an intentional action to hopefully keep his ball from returning to that divot.

Off topic, but Tiger didn't "blatantly cheat".  If he had been cheating, he wouldn't have been stupid enough to make that statement.  He didn't realize that he didn't get a 2 club leeway when dropping at the previous spot.  He simply didn't know the rule well enough and thought that he was allowed to fudge the drop a bit.

2 minutes ago, Hardluckster said:

Fourputt,

While I completely agree with your statement above, I am of the opinion that the 'scorecard contract' isn't worth the paper its written on in any tournament that adopts the new local rule excusing scorecard penalties from being assessed due simply to ignorance of the rules/penalties.  As you know, the original penalty could still be assessed but this new local rule removes additional punishment for signing a 'contract' that is in error (assuming that the golfer didn't know the penalty was required).

I think (or hope) that most golfers are of high integrity.  I feel that the vast majority are above using rules such as this as a loophole.  That said, there are golfers at every level who are willing to use just such a loophole in an attempt to win an event.  This watering down of the accountability requirement will only aid those dishonest individuals in their efforts to 'beat the system'.

Hopefully, I am wrong.  Hopefully it never happens.  I wouldn't be willing to wager that is the case, however.

That is the slippery slope that I was referring to.  Once you start "forgiving" mistakes, it's going to be hard to close the floodgates.

Edited December 13, 2017 by Fourputt

[saevel25]

1 minute ago, Fourputt said:

Off topic, but Tiger didn't "blatantly cheat".  If he had been cheating, he wouldn't have made that statement.  He didn't realize that he didn't get a 2 club leeway when dropping at the previous spot.  He simply didn't know the rule well enough and thought that he was allowed to fudge the drop a bit.

I could say that if he went a few feet away, he has an argument for being close. With Tiger's knowledge of the game. I highly doubt he didn't know what he was doing. He might have been caught up in the moment, but it was a blatant attempt to get an advantage by re-hitting the shot at a better spot.

[Hardluckster]

1 minute ago, Fourputt said:

Off topic, but Tiger didn't "blatantly cheat".  If he had been cheating, he wouldn't have made that statement.  He didn't realize that he didn't get a 2 club leeway when dropping at the previous spot.  He simply didn't know the rule well enough and thought that he was allowed to fudge the drop a bit.

I completely agree with this.  I firmly believe that Tiger either had a complete brain freeze and mistakenly applied the wrong drop rule, or he did not know the rule well enough to begin with.