Tournament Golf History - Offshoot of Tiger/Jack GOAT Discussion

[skydog]

6 minutes ago, iacas said:

I think that, having heard from people directly, that Tiger Woods has almost always driven his own changes. He's "owned" his changes more than people think. People seem to have the impression that Tiger is going to coaches saying "please, sir, what should I do?" when it was likely much more like a "here is what I am thinking… you be my external set of eyes to help me do that."

Fair point and good perspective. 

[turtleback]

58 minutes ago, iacas said:

Nicklaus went for a tune-up with Jim Flick every off-season (back, y'know, when they had an off-season).

 

Minor nit, it was Jack Grout, the pro at Scioto who taught Jack to play, and while Jack may have gone to Flick for his later tune-ups, the pattern started long before with Jack Grout.  I remember in one of Jack's books him describing those sessions.  He'd tell Grout that he'd like to learn the game and Grout would start by going through the very basic fundamentals.

As to 'owning' his own swing because he didn't have a designated coach?  That is kind of silly because in his era NO ONE had a swing coach.  But Jack got plenty of help from a lot of places.  Pros routinely gave each other lessons.  Jack got his whole short game reworked by Phil Rodgers.

And it is a little hard to give him credit for owning his swing when he had some serious misconceptions about how and why things happened, i.e., the old incorrect ball flight laws.

[iacas]

12 minutes ago, Dr. Manhattan said:

If he completely owned the swing, he would not struggle so much to get the ball in the fairway with a driver. At one time he was pretty straight off the tee with Harmon (and extremely long). Ever since the Haney swing changes, he has been very erratic with the driver.

I disagree with that definition.

But it's yours, so, you get to have it. I just don't share it.

2 minutes ago, turtleback said:

Minor nit, it was Jack Grout, the pro at Scioto who taught Jack to play, and while Jack may have gone to Flick for his later tune-ups, the pattern started long before with Jack Grout.

Yep, sorry, my bad. I skipped ahead to the end.

4 minutes ago, turtleback said:

As to 'owning' his own swing because he didn't have a designated coach? That is kind of silly because in his era NO ONE had a swing coach. But Jack got plenty of help from a lot of places. Pros routinely gave each other lessons.  Jack got his whole short game reworked by Phil Rodgers.

And Hogan often consulted people on his swing, and what they saw.

4 minutes ago, turtleback said:

And it is a little hard to give him credit for owning his swing when he had some serious misconceptions about how and why things happened, i.e., the old incorrect ball flight laws.

I don't knock him for that, but like I said above… everyone gets to build their own definition.

[brocks]

19 minutes ago, turtleback said:

And it is a little hard to give him credit for owning his swing when he had some serious misconceptions about how and why things happened, i.e., the old incorrect ball flight laws.

IMO this is one of the best arguments that the fields are stronger today.  Hogan famously dug his swing out of the dirt.  It took him years to perfect it, because he had to do it by trial and error. 

Let's say that 1% of people are born with the talent to play championship golf.  Of course, most of them will never pick up a club, for various reasons.  But take 100 of them who actually attempt to become a pro.

If they were born before, say, 1950, then maybe ten of them were like Sam Snead, who evidently just naturally had a great swing.  And maybe ten of them were like Hogan, who put in the years of trial and error it took him to develop a great swing.  And maybe a dozen or two are lucky enough to find a great coach or teacher who helps them find their optimal swing.

The rest of them might never find their optimal swing.  They still might do well on tour, but some 50 of the 100 won't reach their full potential.

Now take 100 guys born after 1990.  They have all the modern tools that show them their spin rate, launch angle, apex height, clubhead speed, etc., etc.  Stuff Hogan had no way of determining.  It takes just ONE SWING to tell them exactly how a tweak affects their swing.  In one session, they can learn as much about their swing as it took Hogan six months to do.

So now you have 80 or 90 out of a hundred players finding their optimal swing.

All these figures are of course pulled out of my ass, but I think the concept is valid.

[Dr. Manhattan]

22 minutes ago, turtleback said:

Minor nit, it was Jack Grout, the pro at Scioto who taught Jack to play, and while Jack may have gone to Flick for his later tune-ups, the pattern started long before with Jack Grout.  I remember in one of Jack's books him describing those sessions.  He'd tell Grout that he'd like to learn the game and Grout would start by going through the very basic fundamentals.

As to 'owning' his own swing because he didn't have a designated coach?  That is kind of silly because in his era NO ONE had a swing coach.  But Jack got plenty of help from a lot of places.  Pros routinely gave each other lessons.  Jack got his whole short game reworked by Phil Rodgers.

And it is a little hard to give him credit for owning his swing when he had some serious misconceptions about how and why things happened, i.e., the old incorrect ball flight laws.

 

What do you think of Trevino? Seems like he was tough as nails due to his childhood (similar to Hogan). Knew exactly where the ball was going 99% of the time thanks to his very consistent low fade. And he could chip the hell out of it when he did happen to miss a green.

[iacas]

8 minutes ago, Dr. Manhattan said:

What do you think of Trevino? Seems like he was tough as nails due to his childhood (similar to Hogan). Knew exactly where the ball was going 99% of the time thanks to his very consistent low fade. And he could chip the hell out of it when he did happen to miss a green.

If any reasonably skilled golfer knew where 99% of his shots were going he'd win every time he played, and by ridiculous margins.

[turtleback]

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL40E9F65E65B89F82

If you have never see the Shell's Wonderful World of Golf episode from 1962, between Gene Littler and Byron Nelson at the legendary Pine Valley, you might want to have a look.  I'm not sure if there is any other video of Pine Valley, whose exclusivity makes Augusta look like a muni in comparison.

Jack played there on his honeymoon.  Women weren't allowed in the facilities or on the course, so the story is that a member took Barbara around on the roads outside the course so she could catch glimpses of Jack playing.  What a romantic devil that Jack was.

 

[iacas]

13 minutes ago, turtleback said:

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL40E9F65E65B89F82

I think we linked to that in this topic:

 

[turtleback]

3 hours ago, iacas said:

I think we linked to that in this topic:

 

Cool.  I've been trying to find video of the old made-for-TV CBS classic, the pairs matchplay event that was played at Firestone.  

Anyone?  Bueller?

Edited March 14, 2018 by turtleback

[boogielicious]

13 hours ago, turtleback said:

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL40E9F65E65B89F82

If you have never see the Shell's Wonderful World of Golf episode from 1962, between Gene Littler and Byron Nelson at the legendary Pine Valley, you might want to have a look.  I'm not sure if there is any other video of Pine Valley, whose exclusivity makes Augusta look like a muni in comparison.

Jack played there on his honeymoon.  Women weren't allowed in the facilities or on the course, so the story is that a member took Barbara around on the roads outside the course so she could catch glimpses of Jack playing.  What a romantic devil that Jack was.

 

I played golf with my wife on our honeymoon at Royal Ka'anipali, which was a LPGA course at the time. I guess I one-uped Mr. Nicklaus!

[Phil McGleno]

I played dozens of PGA Tour events in the 60s and 70s-The PGA made sure that PGA club pros and teachers-Though we were not quite the same as modern day instructors or coaches-Could play.

The PGA Tour in the early days was like 50 guys who could travel.-The rest of the field was club pros and local players and some rabbits who could not afford to travel but did so anyway. As the years went on and as we got into the mid-70s club pros were down to about 1/4 of the field I think-and by the 80s it was almost entirely touring pros with a few local spots reserved still for guys who would help bring their clubs out to watch and drive up attendance.

It is a frikking joke to think that I was anywhere near as strong a competitor-that I could even hold his tee pegs-as someone ranked #400 in the world right now.-No way no how.

We did not have a bunch of players from other countries.-We did not have a lot of players from THIS country playing golf back then.

If Arnie created a bunch of golfers-Even they took about 20-25 years to begin to make the PGA Tour.-Too late for Jack to have to play against them except in his later years when he did not fare all that well.

The Web.com Tour probably has 100 golfers who are all better than numbers 40+ on the PGA Tour in 1970.-I do not have a doubt about that. And Tiger is battling better equipment which makes it easier for a B+ player to compete with an A+ player.

Sure I could beat Jack on any given day, but the odds of anyone in my level winning a tournament-beating Jack over 4 days-NIL. We never did. We hoped to have a good 2 or 4 days and maybe cash a small check and get to play a round or 2 with some of the better players who could afford to tour and whatnot.-It was our day in the sun. We were not actual competition.

Hell, and shucks-I watch some of the NCAA tournament every year and there are a number of college kids who are better than the majority of the fields in the first half of the Nicklaus years-60s.

[turtleback]

Great post, Phil, thanks.  Earlier in the thread I asked about the magnitude of equipment improvement between 1963 and what Tiger played in his '97 Masters, compared to the equipment improvement from Tiger's '97 to the current equipment.

I have this vague idea that the equipment he won the '97 Masters with was closer to 1963 equipment than to modern equipment.

I'd love to have your take on this, as it would be both first hand and more informed than most.

[Groucho Valentine]

I think Tiger is a better golfer than Nicklaus. And i saw Jack play at the father son challenge in the late 90's so my view is irrefutable. If Tiger would hypothetically played in Jacks era or vise versa, he certainly wouldn't have won 18 majors. The bar completely changes levels. 

[brocks]

Great post, and great insights.  Thanks.

 

Edited March 14, 2018 by brocks

[Phil McGleno]

6 hours ago, turtleback said:

I have this vague idea that the equipment he won the '97 Masters with was closer to 1963 equipment than to modern equipment.

I'd love to have your take on this, as it would be both first hand and more informed than most.

Tiger played muscleback irons and a small steel driver.-So yes those clubs were closer to what they played in 1997 than what they are playing in 2018.

His irons are almost the same now.-Still just musclebacks. Those do not change over the years much.

But drivers and irons for the other players and hybrids are further apart now from 1997 than from 1963 to 1997.

[Dr. Manhattan]

Anyone else think the situation with Hagen/Hogan could end up happening over time with Nicklaus/Woods? 

[sheepdog]

And Hogan often consulted people on his swing, and what they saw.

 

But Hogan could be a real A hole when asked for advice, ask Gary Player.

Story is Player asked Hogan to look at his swing and give him a few tips.

Hogan asked Player what company's clubs he was playing.

Player said Dunlap.

Hogan told him to go ask Mr. Dunlap for advice.

 

 

 

[skydog]

35 minutes ago, Dr. Manhattan said:

Anyone else think the situation with Hagen/Hogan could end up happening over time with Nicklaus/Woods? 

I think it’s inevitable that later generations forget/diminish the accomplishments of earlier generations. That said, I’m guessing Jack’s 18 will hold up through history and I think Tiger’s dominance and impact on the game won’t be matched so from that perspective I think both will still be talked about to varying degrees for a long time.