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Tournament Golf History - Offshoot of Tiger/Jack GOAT Discussion


turtleback
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5 minutes ago, iacas said:

You would have a hard time arguing that he'd have done better, though, for sure.

Pretty logical to say he'd far as well or, more likely, poorer.

I know a lot of people who could pretty easily make a case for Lemieux over Gretzky. Hockey is a team sport, so the achievements there are even muddier. A lot of people will say that Gretzky played on better teams, but Lemieux was the better natural hockey player.

See, that's how stuck in your own opinion you are. Brandel Chamblee and much more so Johnny Miller played against those guys… and still give the edge to Tiger.

The fields are stronger and deeper now. That's pretty much a fact. You can try to take it down as an opinion all you want - it's not. Golf is not an anomaly. There are more players now, more countries, more money, better training, and so on and so on.

Golf's fields are both stronger and deeper now. Look at the fields in the British Open then compared to now. Look at the fields in the U.S. Open. In the first Q School in like 1965, something like 59 players tried out. Within the last few years, we've broken 10,000+ people trying to qualify for the U.S. Open.

The fields are stronger and deeper now. That's not just my opinion.

And as I've said a few times… even Jack Nicklaus himself would tell you this: the fields are stronger and deeper now. By far.

Here's a graph that demonstrates what I'm talking about (and also demonstrates how the fields can't keep getting tougher and tougher to infinity… there's a limiting factor because only 125 people are ever really "on" the PGA Tour, and the effective % of a population reaches a limit of 0%:

strengths.png

From this post:

A mockup image that I've run by more people than I can count with positive reviews:

I have the feeling you haven't read that other topic at all.

There's a heavy factual basis to it. The simplest is represented by the graphic above: more players = stronger fields.

Real life, every year, on the PGA Tour ain't Hoosiers. (And even then their depth was five - their sixth player was substantially worse.)

Okay, You've explained that pretty well. I see what you're getting at, and the point about the Tour being limited to 125 despite the large number of players is excellent. Now let me ask you a question, I'm curious to hear your answer, even though from what you've just shown, I don't think it applies to golf. Remember not too long ago when all the major sports leagues kept expanding? Most felt it was happening too rapidly, and the talent level was watered down. I still think the ends of the bench in a lot of sports are now. Do you think the talent pool in the major sports has caught up to the expansion rate back then? 

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2 minutes ago, GrandStranded said:

Don't take it wrong, The last thing I was doing was claiming superior knowledge or challenging you. We are a year apart in age. I'm 63. I'm amazed though how you remember Jack's career so differently then I do. I remember every year the media and/or Jack would discuss his chances for a Grand Slam. He didn't seem to play a heavy schedule, but seemed only concerned about being ready for the Majors. It almost seemed like golf took a back seat to him once his children were born. Do you remember it much different? I'm really curious.

Understand, I was not just around in those days I was already a ridiculously AVID golf fan in an age where that was not easy.  I got my first subscription to Golf Digest in about 1966 when I was 10.  I also read a lot of golf history so my recollections don't fade into a rose colored glow of the past.  

The whole Grand Slam resurrection really started with Arnie.

http://www.saturdayeveningpost.com/2016/09/28/archives/historical-retrospectives/arnold-palmer-introduces-grand-slam.html

He had already been on a bit of a crusade to revive the British Open, since it was rare in the post-war period for Americans, who made up the vast majority of top players, to go over.  In 1960 he won the Masters and the US Open, the first 2 played, and came up with the idea of the Modern Professional Grand Slam which, ironically since it is now claimed that majors were always the most important, is really about the first time that exactly what would be a major was addressed - the 2 Arnie had won, the British Open, and the PGA.

Well Arnie went on to not win it, but the notion was now out there.

Meanwhile, Jack was searching for greatness.  As one who met Bobby Jones at an early age, and who had a father who was well off, Jack started out to become the Bobby Jones of his time, a gentleman amateur who could compete with and beat the pros.  With the ultimate goal of duplicating JONES's Grand Slam - the 2 Opens and the 2 Amateurs.  Cooler heads prevailed and he turned pro.  Needing a new goal he decided that to be considered the best he had to eclipse Sam Snead's record for PGA victories.  Unfortunately, after a few years it became apparent that wasn't going to happen.

At that point, for whatever reason he decided that Hogan was the greatest and for him to surpass Hogan he would have to exceed Hogan's greatest achievement, the 3 for 3 in the majors he played in 1953.  Which tapped back into the Grand Slam idea that was floating around.

And THAT is when Jack started talking about it and all of the hubbub started every year about Jack and the Grand Slam, that we both remember, up until the point where he lost one of them.  And you are correct that even then the focus was on the Grand Slam.  Not number of majors.  No one even noticed that when Jack won his 12th major at the 1972 US Open he surpassed Hagen for most majors.  Do you remember any 'Hagen eclipsed by Nicklaus' talk back then?  Me neither.

But a couple of majors later, with hopes of a Grand Slam fading fast he passed Jones, his original hero.  The only problem was that the Jones thing is kind of bogus because other than having been part of the 'Impregnable Quadrilateral', as it was called, it is absurd to call the amateurs majors.  Jones won 7 Open championships and that is a heck of an achievement and it doesn't need to be puffed by including Amateurs.  

And while the Jones thing was bogus he had the real record - and had owned it since '72 when he became the golfer with the most professional majors, a distinction so momentous that no one even noticed.

But now he something to hang his hat on.  And he did.  And he convinced all (well most) of us as well.

As an aside, since we lived through the same stuff, if you can get your hands on a copy of the Frank Beard book, 

https://www.amazon.com/Pro-Frank-Beard-golf-tour/dp/B0006CUDDQ

I think you will enjoy it.  It is one of those day by day diary of a guy who was pretty successful for a while and who just happened to end up the year he wrote the book as the leading money winner.  Nice walk down memory lane.  Modern tour players should have it as required reading so they appreciate how well they have it.

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But then again, what the hell do I know?

Rich - in name only

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10 minutes ago, GrandStranded said:

Now let me ask you a question, I'm curious to hear your answer, even though from what you've just shown, I don't think it applies to golf. Remember not too long ago when all the major sports leagues kept expanding?

Those are one-year expansions, and they're on teams.

When the NHL expanded from six to 12 teams in 1967, the talent level per team took a huge hit. The population of hockey players didn't double overnight, but the number of teams did.

So that's not the same kind of situation.

That's a case of an instantaneous expansion, which of course waters down the average talent level. Also, in most sports, teams compete against other teams. So weakening all teams keeps teams on "equal" footing. If you have a tournament with six players and it's one against six, the field is not weakened when you add six more - it's strengthened, because more players have a chance to win. Because golf is a matter of one player playing against the others in the field.

Golf has actually almost done the opposite - it's contracted. As the number of golfers continues to grow, the number of players that can play each week remains at about 144 or 156 or whatever. A smaller percentage get to play every week. It's the opposite of expansion in that sense.

If the NHL contracted back to six teams… imagine who your third and fourth line centers might be. They'd be first-line centers on some teams today.

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1 hour ago, turtleback said:

He occupies the same place as Hank Aaron - an undeniably great great player whose greatest strength was being able to play at a highest level for a long time.

Fair analysis (although as a baseball fan, I feel what Aaron did is incredibly rare).

Again, I wasn't the golf fan I am now. All I remember about golf in the 70's and 80's was that Jack seemed to win everything. All I knew about golf in the 2000's was that no matter who was ahead in a tournament, Tiger would always catch them on Sunday.

25 minutes ago, iacas said:

You would have a hard time arguing that he'd have done better, though, for sure.

Pretty logical to say he'd far as well or, more likely, poorer.

Hell no. He'd have been playing against Tiger. :-D

Pretty safe to assume neither would have quite as good of a record if they played against one another while both in their prime.

Seriously, I don't have any data to back up the hypothesis that extremely gifted athletes rise or "up their game" to stiffer competition. It's just an opinion. But I think the really exceptional athletes are just that - exceptional. And given the same opportunities (better training, knowledge, etc.) would be competitive against a higher skill level of a later era.

Jon

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8 minutes ago, iacas said:

Those are one-year expansions, and they're on teams.

When the NHL expanded from six to 12 teams in 1967, the talent level per team took a huge hit. The population of hockey players didn't double overnight, but the number of teams did.

So that's not the same kind of situation.

That's a case of an instantaneous expansion, which of course waters down the average talent level. Also, in most sports, teams compete against other teams. So weakening all teams keeps teams on "equal" footing. If you have a tournament with six players and it's one against six, the field is not weakened when you add six more - it's strengthened, because more players have a chance to win. Because golf is a matter of one player playing against the others in the field.

Golf has actually almost done the opposite - it's contracted. As the number of golfers continues to grow, the number of players that can play each week remains at about 144 or 156 or whatever. A smaller percentage get to play every week. It's the opposite of expansion in that sense.

If the NHL contracted back to six teams… imagine who your third and fourth line centers might be. They'd be first-line centers on some teams today.

I totally get your point now about golf. I'm curious about the other sports though, now that they all have 30 or more teams. I just wonder if the rule of limited opportunity still applies. Not debating, just asking for your or anyone else's opinion.

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(edited)

In 1963 Jack won his first Masters.

In 1997 Tiger won his first Masters.

In 2015 Jordan Spieth won his first Masters.

Other than the fact that they were probably MacGregors I don't know if specifics about Jack's clubs are easily discoverable.  Top of the line, for sure.

It is easier for Tiger and Jordan.

https://www.pgatour.com/equipmentreport/2017/04/04/tiger-woods-unique-irons-1997-masters.html

This tells about Tiger's clubs (never realized he was an early adopter of split sets).

https://www.pga.com/golf-equipment/winners-bag/jordan-spieth-whats-in-winners-bags-week-april-12-2015

And this cells about Jordan's clubs.

So my question is, how does the equipment gap between what Jack and Tiger played in those first Masters victories compare with the corresponding equipment gap between Jordan and Tigers'.  

IOW, which set of clubs, Jack's or Jordan's, was most similar in technology to Tiger's?

@Phil McGleno I would particularly be interested in your take since your experience is first hand.

Edited by turtleback

But then again, what the hell do I know?

Rich - in name only

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7 minutes ago, turtleback said:

In 1963 Jack won his first Masters.

In 1997 Tiger won his first Masters.

In 2015 Jordan Spieth won his first Masters.

Other than the fact that they were probably MacGregors I don't know if specifics about Jack's clubs are easily discoverable.  Top of the line, for sure.

It is easier for Tiger and Jordan.

https://www.pgatour.com/equipmentreport/2017/04/04/tiger-woods-unique-irons-1997-masters.html

This tells about Tiger's clubs (never realized he was an early adopter of split sets).

https://www.pga.com/golf-equipment/winners-bag/jordan-spieth-whats-in-winners-bags-week-april-12-2015

And this cells about Jordan's clubs.

So my question is, how does the equipment gap between what Jack and Tiger played in those first Masters victories compare with the corresponding equipment gap between Jordan and Tigers'.  

IOW, which set of clubs, Jack's or Jordan's, was most similar in technology to Tiger's?

Wasn't Tiger one of the last pro's to put a graphite shaft in his driver? I seem to remember him struggling with his accuracy after the switch much more then before...

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Lots of things to say. 

One, I think it’s hilarious how the offshoot thread from the jack/tiger discussion thread has become about jack/tiger

two, I don’t buy the equipment thing. Better equipment makes it harder to dominate, not easier. Game improvement clubs help out someone who slaps it a lot more than someone who pures it. 

Regarding the original question in this thread, poor old Harry Vardon gets a hard knock on these things. He won 7 majors in a time when there were only 2 and one of those was an ocean away. He missed his prime years to WWI. He caught some nasty thing that gave him spasms in his hands that effectively gave him the yips. He deserves a spot in the discussion. 

Four, it’s Tiger who is the GOAT. He’s definitely the BOAT. GOAT is debatable but if you argue for jack you’re wrong ;)

Edited by Ty_Webb
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@Ty_Webb

Exactly right about equipment. Tiger lost a big advantage when hybrid clubs and Pro V1's came along. He was no longer the only guy who could hit high soft long iron type approach shots. Now everybody could do it.

Nicklaus had a massive advantage over his opponents his whole career because he could hit those high, soft long iron shots. Hell, Trevino was psyched out about Augusta because he felt his ball flight was too low to ever win there. 

It was interesting to me the other day watching Corey Conners. At one point the announcers said he pretty much plays a straight ball every time. Tiger grew up with balata and persimmon and prefers to shape every shot. It is frustrating to watch him try to shape shots with technology that is not designed to move much in either direction. Bubba Watson is a freak show talent to move the ball as much as he does from left to right and right to left. 

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26 minutes ago, Ty_Webb said:

poor old Harry Vardon gets a hard knock on these things.

He does, but he also only really had to beat like ten people in the world. :-)

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56 minutes ago, GrandStranded said:

Wasn't Tiger one of the last pro's to put a graphite shaft in his driver? I seem to remember him struggling with his accuracy after the switch much more then before...

 

That's correct. Overnight his driving distance jumped about 15 yards. It was shortly before this that Mickelson got in trouble with the media for taking shots at Tiger's equipment, when really Phil was trying to give Tiger a compliment. "He's the only guy who could win so much with that equipment."

Phil was right. Tiger was playing with a pretty big handicap due to his stubbornness. I think Tiger is still stubborn on iron lofts too. He sticks to what he grew up with in the irons, while Phil and others have embraced the tech revolution all the way. 

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FWIW, I don't consider many of the others as GOATs because of the same depth/strength of field stuff that I apply to a small part of the Tiger/Jack stuff.

I try to consider how many majors some of those guys had a chance to play, too, but… still.

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5 minutes ago, Dr. Manhattan said:

 

That's correct. Overnight his driving distance jumped about 15 yards. It was shortly before this that Mickelson got in trouble with the media for taking shots at Tiger's equipment, when really Phil was trying to give Tiger a compliment. "He's the only guy who could win so much with that equipment."

Phil was right. Tiger was playing with a pretty big handicap due to his stubbornness. I think Tiger is still stubborn on iron lofts too. He sticks to what he grew up with in the irons, while Phil and others have embraced the tech revolution all the way. 

Yeah I remember that "inferior equipment" remark by Phil. Speaking of him, Remember when he put a draw and a fade driver in his bag at the same time? then still put a ball in a trash can at the us open? 

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Just now, GrandStranded said:

Yeah I remember that "inferior equipment" remark by Phil. Speaking of him, Remember when he put a draw and a fade driver in his bag at the same time? then still put a ball in a trash can at the us open? 

 

Not gonna knock him too much. I believe he won the Masters one year with the two driver strategy. 

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Just now, Dr. Manhattan said:

 

Not gonna knock him too much. I believe he won the Masters one year with the two driver strategy. 

Me too. Him and Sergio are my favorites.

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17 minutes ago, Dr. Manhattan said:

I think Tiger is still stubborn on iron lofts too. He sticks to what he grew up with in the irons, while Phil and others have embraced the tech revolution all the way. 

I think that helps him, if anything. The more loft on the club, the harder it is to curve. Easier to hit straighter or more controlled shots. His distance hasn't changed, regardless of higher lofts. 

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6 minutes ago, jbishop15 said:

I think that helps him, if anything. The more loft on the club, the harder it is to curve. Easier to hit straighter or more controlled shots. His distance hasn't changed, regardless of higher lofts. 

He moves the ball more than anyone except maybe Bubba. You must remember those times when he was blocked out on 15 at Augusta and starts it 100 yards right and lands it on the green. 

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8 hours ago, iacas said:

Hogan's injury was different. He took and needed significantly less time off. He nearly died, yes, but you can nearly die of a gunshot wound (for example) but be in better health to play golf than a guy who can't even bend over because of a spinal issue.

Although I agree with you in general, I have to dispute this.  Hogan's injury prevented him from playing the PGA Championship for as long as it was match play, because his legs simply couldn't take playing 36 holes a day for several consecutive days, which was the format back then.  That was nearly ten years of his prime where he couldn't play the PGA.

Incidentally, it also means that he could not have won the Grand Slam, even if the Open and the PGA hadn't had conflicting dates during his 3-major year.

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