Is Phil Mickelson Going Nuts?: Hitting a moving ball at US Open

[sjduffers]

4 minutes ago, iacas said:

Phil also "took an action with the intent to influence the motion of a ball in play." That's the language in 1-2.

Also, we haven't really discussed "intent" much, but this is one of those situations where the action makes completely clear the intent. He wasn't trying to swat a bug near his ball or anything else; he was trying to hit the ball. His actions belied his intent, sans guesswork and/or mind-reading.

However, the language in 1-2 that says that for any situation explicitly covered by another rule, that other rule applies and not 1-2, provides the rationale for using 14-5 and applying a penalty of 2 strokes, regardless of intent, i.e. even when made deliberately. QED.

Edited June 19, 2018 by sjduffers

[iacas]

1 minute ago, sjduffers said:

However, the language in 1-2 that says that for any situation explicitly covered by another rule, that other rule applies and not 1-2, provides the rationale for using 14-5 and applying a penalty of 2 strokes, regardless of intent, i.e. even when made deliberately. QED.

We've had this discussion multiple times already.

There's also a note below 14-5 that refers back to 1-2.

"(Ball purposely deflected or stopped by player, partner or caddie - see Rule 1-2)" - I would argue that's what Phil did.

[sjduffers]

Just now, iacas said:

We've had this discussion multiple times already.

There's also a note below 14-5 that refers back to 1-2.

Forgive me, I have only read the first 4 pages or so of replies and, as I said, came late to the discussion. I am just offering my opinion on the topic. It may coincide with that of others: hey, that has happened before, too! 😉

I know, the reference to 1-2 from 14-5 deals with stopping or deflecting a ball in motion. But Phil made a stroke, following the definition of the stroke.

Look, I get it that it's bad optics. Let's laugh about it, like Phil did and move on. And let's turn to the real tragedy of the game: the US Open is turning into an annual mockery because... [I won't repeat myself].

[iacas]

2 minutes ago, sjduffers said:

I know, the reference to 1-2 from 14-5 deals with stopping or deflecting a ball in motion. But Phil made a stroke, following the definition of the stroke.

I'm not gonna keep repeating this stuff. He also purposefully deflected the ball.

2 minutes ago, sjduffers said:

Look, I get it that it's bad optics. Let's laugh about it, like Phil did and move on.

No thank you.

As I've also said several times now, the lying after the fact, and the insulting of people who didn't like what he did, is worse.

You do realize it's more than just a few people who didn't like this. Plenty of players are pissed at Phil. Former, current, etc.

2 minutes ago, sjduffers said:

And let's turn to the real tragedy of the game: the US Open is turning into an annual mockery because... [I won't repeat myself].

I will: once again, this is not the topic here.

[fishgolf]

7 minutes ago, iacas said:

"(Ball purposely deflected or stopped by player, partner or caddie - see Rule 1-2)" - I would argue that's what Phil did.

It looked to me like Phil stroked it with the intent of putting it in the hole - not stop or deflect it.  This is why the rule needs to be changed IMO.

[iacas]

9 minutes ago, fishgolf said:

It looked to me like Phil stroked it with the intent of putting it in the hole - not stop or deflect it.  This is why the rule needs to be changed IMO.

The people who keep saying "the rule needs to be changed"… have you looked at the 2019 Rules?

I have, briefly, and the ambiguity is still there, IMO. But it's not between 1-2 and 14-5, it's 11.2 and 10.2 I think, with 10.2 being the 14-5 and 11.2 only going as far as to add two strokes (but also to cancel the stroke made at the ball and to replace it on the putting green, IIRC).

[fishgolf]

5 minutes ago, iacas said:

The people who keep saying "the rule needs to be changed"… have you looked at the 2019 Rules?

I did. http://www.usga.org/rules-hub/rules-modernization/text/major-proposed-changes.html 

Perhaps I'm missing it but none of these address "the event" and that act resulting in a DQ as I described in my earlier post.

[GolfLug]

I cried foul because Phil portrays intentional breaking of rules and incurring penalty as a legit strategy for higher percentage play. Like its nothing more than 'taking your medicine' to avoid a bigger number, then yeah, well, we agree to disagree at a much more fundamental level.

 

 

[iacas]

1 minute ago, fishgolf said:

I did. http://www.usga.org/rules-hub/rules-modernization/text/major-proposed-changes.html 

Download the actual PDF.

From another site:

C) Character (on the stage of golf).  In his masterful poem, The Circus Animals' Desertion, Yeats wrote of "character isolated by a deed/to engross the present and dominate memory."  Phil Mickelson demonstrated exactly why he has never and will never be the U.S. Open champion.  I think the U.S. Open is silly golf, personally, run by a silly, self-important and antiquated organization.  BUT that's the same that it's ever been, and if Phil wanted to protest that, he should have done what he did, then picked the ball up, shaken Johnston's hand and retired to the clubhouse.  THAT would have been a protest.  So the USGA creates a psychological rubric and uses its armchair hack approach to torment the best golfers in the world.  You know that when you pay the entry fee.  You enter the den, and the most mentally tough and resilient player of the week more often than not emerges to take the trophy.  Phil Mickelson is not and will not ever be the most mentally tough and resilient player.

I bolded the part I thought the most relevant.

[GolfLug]

6 hours ago, Elmer said:

 

 except one is a crime and one is a rule in a golf tournament!

Ok I called off the cops.😊

[Chris223]

21 minutes ago, iacas said:

 

You do realize it's more than just a few people who didn't like this. Plenty of players are pissed at Phil. Former, current, etc.

And theres more than “just a few” players and fans who don’t friggen care and have moved past it.  If you choose to condemn any pro athlete that lies to your shit list you must have a LONG list.  Point is, plenty of people think Phil needs to go crawl under a rock and never play golf again and thats fine.  Move on, you and everyone else arguing for 11 pages on this isn’t going to change the fact that the PGA Tour is moving on and if the USGA wants to modify the rules so something like this doesn’t happen again great thats a topic for another day

[iacas]

1 minute ago, Chris223 said:

And theres more than “just a few” players and fans who don’t friggen care and have moved past it.

Yet that list doesn't seem to include you, despite saying you were "done" several times now.

1 minute ago, Chris223 said:

If you choose to condemn any pro athlete that lies to your shit list you must have a LONG list.

It matters more when we're talking about golf. Golf, to me, is different than every other sport.

1 minute ago, Chris223 said:

Point is, plenty of people think Phil needs to go crawl under a rock and never play golf again and thats fine.

Hyperbole much?

1 minute ago, Chris223 said:

Move on, you and everyone else arguing for 11 pages on this isn’t going to change the fact that the PGA Tour is moving on and if the USGA wants to modify the rules so something like this doesn’t happen again great thats a topic for another day

You don't see the hypocrisy here, even after telling us that you were "done" and ostensibly moving on yourself a few times???

[fishgolf]

1 minute ago, iacas said:

Download the actual PDF.

From another site:

C) Character (on the stage of golf).  In his masterful poem, The Circus Animals' Desertion, Yeats wrote of "character isolated by a deed/to engross the present and dominate memory."  Phil Mickelson demonstrated exactly why he has never and will never be the U.S. Open champion.  I think the U.S. Open is silly golf, personally, run by a silly, self-important and antiquated organization.  BUT that's the same that it's ever been, and if Phil wanted to protest that, he should have done what he did, then picked the ball up, shaken Johnston's hand and retired to the clubhouse.  THAT would have been a protest.  So the USGA creates a psychological rubric and uses its armchair hack approach to torment the best golfers in the world.  You know that when you pay the entry fee.  You enter the den, and the most mentally tough and resilient player of the week more often than not emerges to take the trophy.  Phil Mickelson is not and will not ever be the most mentally tough and resilient player.

I bolded the part I thought the most relevant.

Umm, yeah, ok.  So do the proposed 2019 rules result in a DQ for taking a stroke, deflecting, or otherwise a ball which the player put in motion to begin with? I'm not seeing it. 

[Chris223]

5 minutes ago, iacas said:

Yet that list doesn't seem to include you, despite saying you were "done" several times now.

It matters more when we're talking about golf. Golf, to me, is different than every other sport.

Hyperbole much?

You don't see the hypocrisy here, even after telling us that you were "done" and ostensibly moving on yourself a few times???

Sorry I can’t help but laugh at the fact that everyone is still arguing like children in here and its resulting in what?  Continue, I’m gonna go discuss more relevant topics elsewhere on the forum, you seem to have an answer for everything.

[iacas]

3 minutes ago, fishgolf said:

Umm, yeah, ok.  So do the proposed 2019 rules result in a DQ for taking a stroke, deflecting, or otherwise a ball which the player put in motion to begin with? I'm not seeing it. 

I never said it did. This also isn't the Rules Forum.

1 minute ago, Chris223 said:

Sorry I can’t help but laugh at the fact that everyone is still arguing like children in here and its resulting in what?  Continue, I’m gonna go discuss more relevant topics elsewhere on the forum, you seem to have an answer for everything.

It's a discussion on a golf forum. If you're looking for some grand meaning or something, you're doing it wrong. As for you being "done" yet again, I'll believe it when I see it. Next time you want to be "done," try to just do it, not announce it and renege several times.

19 of your last 21 posts were in this topic, BTW. But as soon as you decide (finally?) to stop, the rest of us are behaving like children? Nah.

[sjduffers]

15 minutes ago, iacas said:

I think the U.S. Open is silly golf, personally, run by a silly, self-important and antiquated organization.  BUT that's the same that it's ever been, and if Phil wanted to protest that, he should have done what he did, then picked the ball up, shaken Johnston's hand and retired to the clubhouse.  THAT would have been a protest. 

Hmmm... Did you see the part quoted, just before the bold area (that you added)? It's a quote, possibly attributed to Phil that basically said the same thing I did, that you find out of topic. Yet, you quoted it... Makes one wonder... I am sure you'll have a good explanation, though.

Yes. Phil could have done that, taken his marbles and gone home, and at this point in the proceeding probably should have done that, because it was ridiculous. Did you see what Poulter had to say (about the course, and the hours of abuse by the "fans")?

[iacas]

Just now, sjduffers said:

Hmmm... Did you see the part quoted, just before the bold area (that you added)? It's a quote, possibly attributed to Phil that basically said the same thing I did, that you find out of topic. Yet, you quoted it... Makes one wonder... I am sure you'll have a good explanation, though.

The explanation is simple: I bolded the part that's relevant to this discussion. Stick to the topic.

[fishgolf]

14 minutes ago, iacas said:

I never said it did. This also isn't the Rules Forum.

Oh come on now @iacasyour post #204 certainly suggested that.  And since this thread is all about rules, it's kind of hard to stay clear of that.  I'm trying to discuss how a change to the rules would be more fair and less subjective should this ever happen again.  Do you want to discuss that or just continue to express your opinion of Phil's integrity, whether he deflected or stroked the ball, is on your player shit list, etc.?