Shaft Flex Issue

[Rough]

I was hitting a Seve driver Ballesteros 10.5 loft driver and irons with regular flex. Never gave flex much thought until now. Was looking to buy a set of TaylorMade (TM) M1 Irons and 'woods'. To better understand what flex I needed, I went for a 30 min lesson with radar for club head speed and tracker for distance etc. TM recommend assessment using 6 iron and driver. 6 iron head speed was 92 mph and distance 168 yards. TM would rate this as Stiff for distance and Tour Stiff for head speed.

The driver head speed wasn't measured but average distance over 100 balls was 258 yards and max was 286 yards. TM would recommend Tour Still for max distance but Stiff for average distance.

As I am coming back from a 5-7 year hiatus, the instructor said the head speed and distance would only get better.

I took ownership of the M1 .9.5 loft yesterday afternoon. I ordered Stiff in both irons and 'woods' based on instructor recommendation and TM fitting table albeit I was concerned that, should my game improve, I would need Stiffer

So here's the question:

I was hitting yesterday 258 yards average, and 286 yards max over 100 balls with the old Seve 10.5 loft and reg flex. I expected to blitz that with the new M1 9.5 loft with Stiff flex. I was wrong. I am obtaining only 244 yards average distance over 100 balls and 276 yard. Well short of my Seve. Worth noting that both has similar consistency.

Any advice? Is the guide flex chart wrong? Is it the loft insufficient?

[Buckeyebowman]

The thing about shaft flex is that there is no objective standard. One makers R might be another's S. One makers S might be another's XS. Also, you have to consider kick point and frequency. One thing I noticed about your fitting is that while it measured the performance of the "Seve" shaft, it did not measure the shaft itself.

This might be a good place to start. Keep working with your fitter, let him know the results of your first session w/the new clubs. It would be good if you could find a place that could give you more data, like launch angle and ball speed off the clubface. That sounds like a Trackman, and doesn't sound like what he has. 

Shaft flex comparisons are one of the most confounding areas in all of golf. Stay patient.

[Rough]

Cheers BEB

The head speed was in the lesson but the range has ‘TopTracer Range’. Launch angle on M1 was a bit inconsistent but I imagine that would be the case on the old club too but I only started to note launch angle when my disappointment set in. I’ll go back out and check. 

[billchao]

@Rough, what's the flight like with your old and new driver?

It sounds to me like more of a swing issue than an equipment one, given that you swing a 6i 92mph but only hit it 168 yards. Trackman indicates the average 6i on the PGA Tour is 92 mph and 183 yards carry, so you're losing distance somewhere.

[Rough]

Billchao for sure. That’s one thing the instructor said. He said the swing has some kinks on the follow through; getting too much loft for a 6i. We started to work on that. Was coming good towards end of session. Went back to range tonight and the M1 distance is increasing with more thought on the swing. Up to 302 yards tonight so you are spot on. Also it’s a 440 head so a bit smaller. Harder to hit sweet spot but when you do it goes.

Edited November 25, 2018 by Rough
Meant to add earlier

[Typhoon92]

The M1 440 cc...what loft are u playing it at?  I'm thinking 8.5.  Try it at 10.5.  Irons, yeah 92 mph should go further.  I'm guessing that u are flipping the club at impact thus turning a 6 iron into a 7 or 8 iron when you look at launch angle.

 

The 440 cc version of the M1 is not very forgiving too btw.  I have the 460 version that I'm selling but was great.

[Rough]

Yep. It’s a bit like a flop shot at impact. Launch angle too high on 6i. Arm coming up to high and face opening. Body a bit slow at turning. Just need to iron out after 7 years out the game. Forgetting the basics! I bought full set of M1 2017 models. Great saving but not so much choice. 460 was preferred but they had what they had...still feel good and hitting pretty consistently.

[Curt]

I had been playing regular (xp95 R-flex steel) and making progress - I just really picked up this game about five years ago, at age 50+ - but then at the bad advice of a perfunctory fitter at Golftec, I switched over to heavier stiffer shafts... and my progress stopped completely and maybe went backwards.  It seemed like good advice at the time, and stroked my ego a bit because in fact I have lifted weights for forty years and I'm stronger and fitter than most 55 year olds, but I always kind of suspected that the advice was a bit weird even as I spent a bunch of money on Apex cf16 w DG300-S shafts....

Finally, being frustrated by stagnation, I recently I got two more fittings, one a less thorough one at Golf Galaxy, and one thorough one at Club Champion.  Both put me in lightweight graphite shafts for all the clubs.  However, Galaxy said light graphite stiff... and Club Champion said graphite regular.  Different shafts though, and indeed different heads... Galaxy was RogueX w Recoil 460 S.  Champion was regular Rogue w Fuji Vista Pro 70 R.  I'd be much better off with either, instead of the heavy stiff steels that I've been trying to play with.  I guess I'm more confident in the Champion diagnosis, ultimately.  

Until I can afford all the custom shafting of the Champion selections, as a holdover compromise I'll play some stock xp95 R-flex steel regular Rogues and try some stock regular Rogues in their Aldila 60ir graphite R-flex also and see how that goes.  It'll definitely be better for me than the DG300-S that the Golftec guy told me to use.

Oh, another interesting thing... instead of a Rogue 10.5 stiff driver, we got much better results at Champion with a Rogue 13.5 R-flex... higher, longer, straighter, more consistent (the straighter and more consistent with R-flex surprised me, but the data was clear as could be.).

[boogielicious]

  On 12/5/2018 at 6:43 AM, Curt said:

I had been playing regular (xp95 R-flex steel) and making progress - I just really picked up this game about five years ago, at age 50+ - but then at the bad advice of a perfunctory fitter at Golftec, I switched over to heavier stiffer shafts... and my progress stopped completely and maybe went backwards.  It seemed like good advice at the time, and stroked my ego a bit because in fact I have lifted weights for forty years and I'm stronger and fitter than most 55 year olds, but I always kind of suspected that the advice was a bit weird even as I spent a bunch of money on Apex cf16 w DG300-S shafts....

Finally, being frustrated by stagnation, I recently I got two more fittings, one a less thorough one at Golf Galaxy, and one thorough one at Club Champion.  Both put me in lightweight graphite shafts for all the clubs.  However, Galaxy said light graphite stiff... and Club Champion said graphite regular.  Different shafts though, and indeed different heads... Galaxy was RogueX w Recoil 460 S.  Champion was regular Rogue w Fuji Vista Pro 70 R.  I'd be much better off with either, instead of the heavy stiff steels that I've been trying to play with.  I guess I'm more confident in the Champion diagnosis, ultimately.  

Until I can afford all the custom shafting of the Champion selections, as a holdover compromise I'll play some stock xp95 R-flex steel regular Rogues and try some stock regular Rogues in their Aldila 60ir graphite R-flex also and see how that goes.  It'll definitely be better for me than the DG300-S that the Golftec guy told me to use.

Oh, another interesting thing... instead of a Rogue 10.5 stiff driver, we got much better results at Champion with a Rogue 13.5 R-flex... higher, longer, straighter, more consistent (the straighter and more consistent with R-flex surprised me, but the data was clear as could be.).

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It is frustrating that stiffness does not match from one brand to the next. I would go with the data though. I find the Xp95 stiff shafts felt much stiffer than regular heavier shafts. I switched to TT AMT Black R300 in one set and PX LZ 5.0 in another and picked up 4-5 yards with my 7 iron. The shafts feel like they load better too.