Faksakes' Experiment

[Piz]

There are a lot more students than there are teachers.  While a student has to develop a working relationship with one instructor (or not)...the instructor has to find a way to connect with every Tom, Dick, and Mary, that comes down the pike.  A good teacher will find a way; but it takes time and thoughtful experiment to do so.

[Faksakes]

2 hours ago, mdl said:

Plenty of people have piled on about thinking all coaching is bad, so I'll just note I also disagree with you there.

But as to your goal, I used to play every once in a while with a guy who'd been a good golfer right handed (mid to high single digit IIRC), and then was hit by a bus on his left side.  Major injuries to left hip and leg. After recovering he found he couldn't swing right handed anymore without pain, but swinging left handed didn't hurt.

So he switched and learned how to play lefty.  I met him years later, so I don't know how long it took him to learn.  But by the time I met him he was probably a 10 handicap with a nice looking swing and solid distance! 

Thanks for the story, it's good to hear stuff like that about him coming back. Disagreeing is all good with me. Thanks for posting.

[Faksakes]

2 hours ago, Piz said:

There are a lot more students than there are teachers.  While a student has to develop a working relationship with one instructor (or not)...the instructor has to find a way to connect with every Tom, Dick, and Mary, that comes down the pike.  A good teacher will find a way; but it takes time and thoughtful experiment to do so.

I'm sure there are good teachers out there but I haven't met any myself. I know about a dozen guys that have got lessens and worked hard on their game and have not improved at all or only very marginally. I have yet to meet one adult that got lessons and lowered their cap over the long run. They often get worse. This one guy I work with was about a 18 hc when I met him. Shot low 90's. Over the last 10 years he's taken lessons galore and although he insists his teacher (his second now) is amazing, he can't break 100. He even got really into fitness to help his game.

I'm not saying people don't sometimes improve with lessons but I think it's rare. Certainly much, much rarer then they have us believe. The golfer is almost always blamed for lack of commitment etc. I think they're better off skipping them for the most part. 

[iacas]

6 minutes ago, Faksakes said:

I'm sure there are good teachers out there but I haven't met any myself.

Then that's a problem when you're assessing whether good instruction can/would help you.

6 minutes ago, Faksakes said:

I'm not saying people don't sometimes improve with lessons but I think it's rare. Certainly much, much rarer then they have us believe. The golfer is almost always blamed for lack of commitment etc. I think they're better off skipping them for the most part.

It's not rare for good instructors to help their students improve.

Your opinion in bold is seemingly based on what happens to people after they work with bad instructors. It's colored your entire outlook.

That's a pity. And it's why I hate bad instructors more than you do.

[Faksakes]

5 hours ago, iacas said:

I don't think you understood/understand what "normal instruction" is. I am the one who wrote the "everyone is a feel player" topic.

We aren't robots. We don't have switches and dials. The only real way to change mechanics is to change how things feel.

I'm not sure you've got a true grasp on what "instruction" is these days.

I gave a lesson today and probably said the word "feel" ten or twelve times. "What's that feel like to you?" "If you have a feel, let me know so I can write that down." Etc.

But you also don't have to say the word "feel" while talking about a "feel."

I feel like you and @Don Golfo are in some bizarro land, and you're trying to assess golf instruction without really having taken much. What's done in a video is not a golf lesson, per se, because it's generalized.

Feels are personalized, and you can't really do that in a video.

Hell, I gave almost identical lessons a few years ago, back to back, same flaws… and the feels were almost exact opposites. You can't convey that in a video, and a video ain't a lesson.

Those are flaws that you listed. How you fix them is often with a feel. But the mechanics are what they are. "You don't have enough shaft lean at impact" is not a feel, but how you fix that is likely with a drill, and a feel. Feels change the mechanics.

I don't think you and I would agree on what "Bubba's method" is.

Bubba is a great golfer. Tell an average player - one who has never hit a big high draw in his life - all you want about "feeling" it and "envisioning" it and… they're still gonna hit some low pull-slice, probably, or mis-hit the ball some other way.

Bubba is altering his mechanics, you bet. But he's beyond the point where he has a stock good shot. Most golfers never even get there.

Most golfers would not benefit at all from Bubba's method. Which has nothing to do with "using feels during instruction."

Again, I have no idea what lessons you or @Don Golfo have taken… I think you're confusing a video put out to the masses with how instruction is. That's best case scenario…

That's funny, seeing as how fewer than one in six golfers even takes a lesson. So where are they getting these "technical" things? You're blaming instructors, and yet… almost none of those "bound up" golfers are taking lessons.

DeChambeau is a feel player. Everyone is. I've seen him, and he didn't have dials and switches on his body.

Look, I'll make it simple: the best instructors have a deep and thorough technical understanding of the golf swing, the human body, ball flight, and more… and teach with feels to change the mechanics.

You cannot be a good instructor without both. Both are important, because what "feels" produce great mechanics in one player might produce complete crap in another.

You're completely off base if you think that DeChambeau isn't a feel player. Of course he is.

No, whether they work OR don't work, the sample size is too small to mean anything. It's a sample size of one. It's statistically irrelevant. Whether you fail OR succeed.

It varies by student, and the fact that this is so surprising to you, man, I don't know what kind of "instruction" you've seen to this point…

Ideally, both. Feelings shift and change. They have to know how to create the right mechanics, because feels will change over time.

Grant Waite stood on a pressure plate and would have sworn his weight was 50/50. It was 65/35. If you told him to "feel" 65/35… he would have gone to 80/20 or something. He's been setting up 65/35 for so long, it felt balanced to him.

Send him home feeling "65/35" and not knowing what that actually looks like and he'll probably come back to you in a month overdoing it.

I had a lesson today, and like almost all lessons, it was a bit of technical stuff, just one piece of the technical stuff, but the properly prioritized piece. How did we change it? With feels.

But that student left with pictures, notes, drills to do, etc. He knows what it should look like, what the function of it is, and how to get to that position, both today with feels (almost all of the "after" video is just hitting a ball with "feels"), but also in a mirror so that as his feels drift and change, he can develop new feels that produce the improved mechanics.

Mechanics are how we hit the ball. There's no escaping that. Feels are how we change or enact the mechanics.

 

I thought we were done? lol

 

Ok so you are misunderstanding me and thinking I don't understand what you are saying. I'm not going to address every single point but here is an attempt at clarifying. 

I understand that you teach mechanics and feel. I understand that you think that is a good way to teach. I understand that we are not robots with dials and that you don't think that way. I understand that different people "feel" different things and it's not at all surprising to me, I know that. I understand that they then need to be taught differently as well. I understand all golfers use feel too, including Bryson. I understand he has amazing feel. 

What I am saying is that the way you are teaching as well as the vast majority of instructors... is hindering your students progress at best and destroying their game at worst. 

I know you were making point of how people feel different things with this statement but I want to address something else within it:

 "Grant Waite stood on a pressure plate and would have sworn his weight was 50/50. It was 65/35. If you told him to "feel" 65/35… he would have gone to 80/20 or something. He's been setting up 65/35 for so long, it felt balanced to him."

But you don't even consider how absurd the discussion was in the first place. You want your students thinking about how much % of weight is on one foot or the other? You use that to get them to feel what you want them to? It is a horrible thing to tell a golfer that. It's all they'll be thinking about on the tee, well that an the other mechanics you told them about. Your student that took home pictures, notes, drills etc. How he knows what "it should look like" and "how to get to that position"......oh man. Sorry, but I feel for him. (had to make that pun haha)

My point of view is that an absolute minimum of technical instruction should be given to most students and that anything past that slows, impedes or reverses their progress. I don't care if you also talk about how the mechanics lead to a certain feel they want. I don't care how many times you mention feel. If you are talking mechanics too, that's what they'll focus on and that will hurt most of them.

All we hear on the golf channel, youtube, mags, forums, lessons is almost all mechanics and technical instruction. And this is the approach people take to fix their swings because it's what is preached. Just like that Butch video. And they mostly fail. Even the ones that get lessons. 

And yes it wasn't a lesson in the vid but that misses the point. It was still instruction and I think this is a poor way to teach people golf. I think it should be the exact opposite.

The swing mechanics are what golfers obsess over because it's what is stressed. We're told that's the approach to fix what is wrong. That's what will be in their heads on the tee box like every other struggling golfer out there. The Pink Elephant they won't be able to get out of their head.

 

This is the first one on one lesson that popped up on youtube when I searched. It's really bad. "Face neutral, attack angle good"......ugh..it makes me cringe. I'll probably have flashbacks later lol. This has 721 thumbs up and 12 thumbs down. 721 people worse off than they were before watching it.

 

Oh and I don't know this Don Golfo dude but he sounds cool.

Edited December 18, 2018 by Faksakes

[phillyk]

People learn differently @Faksakes. From people who want everything, every angle, torque measurement, whatever to those that say “huh?”.  I like to be able to teach both and ultimately they walk away working on one piece with a specific feel that’s associated with it. Some instructors teach only one way because all their students prefer that method. Thats why we like to tell people to do their research and talk to potential instructors about what they do. 

[iacas]

49 minutes ago, Faksakes said:

I thought we were done? lol

You said that. I didn't.

49 minutes ago, Faksakes said:

Ok so you are misunderstanding me and thinking I don't understand what you are saying. I'm not going to address every single point but here is an attempt at clarifying.

I don't think so. I don't think you've ever seen a good golf lesson.

49 minutes ago, Faksakes said:

I understand that you teach mechanics and feel. I understand that you think that is a good way to teach.

Mechanics are how a golfer actually moves. Feels are how they experience those mechanics.

49 minutes ago, Faksakes said:

What I am saying is that the way you are teaching as well as the vast majority of instructors... is hindering your students progress at best and destroying their game at worst.

Ha. Please. You don't have a clue how I teach, and you're dead wrong.

49 minutes ago, Faksakes said:

But you don't even consider how absurd the discussion was in the first place.

You missed the point of that - feel ain't real, and feels shift over time. You can't just give someone the same "feel" you gave someone else last week and expect that it will always work.

49 minutes ago, Faksakes said:

You want your students thinking about how much % of weight is on one foot or the other?

So tell me… how would you instruct someone on how to set up, in a way that they'll understand and can deal with shifting feels?

49 minutes ago, Faksakes said:

It is a horrible thing to tell a golfer that. It's all they'll be thinking about on the tee, well that an the other mechanics you told them about.

That's not remotely accurate.

49 minutes ago, Faksakes said:

Your student that took home pictures, notes, drills etc. How he knows what "it should look like" and "how to get to that position"......oh man. Sorry, but I feel for him. (had to make that pun haha)

Right, so answer my question. You have a student who sets up with square feet, his hips back too far, with the handle leaning backward and his chin much too high. How do you teach the guy how to set up in a way that will benefit him and in such a way that he will know how to do it in three weeks when his feels have changed?

49 minutes ago, Faksakes said:

My point of view is that an absolute minimum of technical instruction should be given to most students and that anything past that slows, impedes or reverses their progress.

Your point of view is that of a guy who got to single digits for a few months one time at your best.

And you've still got no idea how I actually teach, and what blend of "technical" and "feel" I use with people (it's different for different people). But again, please, answer the question above.

49 minutes ago, Faksakes said:

If you are talking mechanics too, that's what they'll focus on and that will hurt most of them.

Mechanics are how you hit the ball. Someone swinging with the clubhead 18" outside the hands at A6 is not going to have much success as a golfer.

49 minutes ago, Faksakes said:

All we hear on the golf channel, youtube, mags, forums, lessons is almost all mechanics and technical instruction.

Again, that's not personal instruction. It's a video for the masses. It's not individualized.

49 minutes ago, Faksakes said:

And yes it wasn't a lesson in the vid but that misses the point. It was still instruction and I think this is a poor way to teach people golf. I think it should be the exact opposite.

No, that doesn't "miss the point." How are you going to discuss feels to a student you're not looking at? Feels vary by person. Feels vary within the same person by the day or week. Some of the worst instructional videos only discuss feels.

49 minutes ago, Faksakes said:

That's what will be in their heads on the tee box like every other struggling golfer out there.

Wrong. My golfers have a feel in mind when they're playing golf.

[Faksakes]

1 minute ago, iacas said:

 

You missed the point of that - feel ain't real, and feels shift over time. You can't just give someone the same "feel" you gave someone else last week and expect that it will always work.

 

Yeah, I said as much the sentence before that. I said I wanted to address something else. "I know you were making point of how people feel different things with this statement but I want to address something else within it:"

As for the setup question I have said several times the fundamentals have to be taught. Setup, stance and grip. Past that...not much.

And as far as everything else, again I disagree. Why not just stop posting in this thread, as it seems to upset you and we aren't really getting anywhere. You are a teacher that has been teaching a long time. You have a certain point of view based on your experience. I respect that. I have no doubt you aren't good at what you do. I just think there's probably a better way. I'm going to see for myself. 

 

[Piz]

You have no doubt that @iacas  isn't good at what he does?

[iacas]

2 minutes ago, Faksakes said:

As for the setup question I have said several times the fundamentals have to be taught. Setup, stance and grip. Past that...not much.

That doesn't answer the question at all.

Tell me: what do you tell that student so that he understands how to set up? Go ahead. I'm waiting.

And, "not much past that?" Right, that'll produce a lot of great golfers. You do know that virtually everyone on the PGA Tour has an instructor, right?

2 minutes ago, Faksakes said:

And as far as everything else, again I disagree.

You disagree, but you don't know much of anything.

2 minutes ago, Faksakes said:

Why not just stop posting in this thread, as it seems to upset you and we aren't really getting anywhere.

Not upset at all.

Answer the question above. How do you get the guy to set up properly?

5 minutes ago, Faksakes said:

I have no doubt you aren't good at what you do.

Ha, okay man.

[Faksakes]

19 minutes ago, phillyk said:

People learn differently @Faksakes. From people who want everything, every angle, torque measurement, whatever to those that say “huh?”.  I like to be able to teach both and ultimately they walk away working on one piece with a specific feel that’s associated with it. Some instructors teach only one way because all their students prefer that method. Thats why we like to tell people to do their research and talk to potential instructors about what they do. 

I hear you on all that, I do. And I know you're giving them what they want. But sometimes the patient doesn't know what's good for them. I'd say I'm not that type of teacher up front and let them decide if they wanted to work with me. I'd ask them to take a lesson and if they didn't like the approach then I wouldn't charge them. I just think there is a much, much easier way and I think I might find it experimenting with my ideas.

3 minutes ago, iacas said:

That doesn't answer the question at all.

Tell me: what do you tell that student so that he understands how to set up? Go ahead. I'm waiting.

And, "not much past that?" Right, that'll produce a lot of great golfers. You do know that virtually everyone on the PGA Tour has an instructor, right?

You disagree, but you don't know much of anything.

Not upset at all.

Answer the question above. How do you get the guy to set up properly?

Ha, okay man.

Not upset at all...

I'm gonna stop replying to you now. 

6 minutes ago, Piz said:

You have no doubt that @iacas  isn't good at what he does?

Oops lol. That was an honest typo. I actually have something kinda like dyslexia where I mess up or reverse words sometimes. It really was a mistake. I meant "I have no doubt that he is good at what he does". 

[iacas]

3 minutes ago, Faksakes said:

I'm gonna stop replying to you now. 

Answer the question, or you don't get to post anymore.

[billchao]

3 minutes ago, Faksakes said:

But sometimes the patient doesn't know what's good for them.

Uh what? Of course sometimes patients don't know, that's why they see doctors. You know, people who have devoted their lives to studying their field of work.

Like golf instructors.

[boogielicious]

6 minutes ago, Faksakes said:

I hear you on all that, I do. And I know you're giving them what they want. But sometimes the patient doesn't know what's good for them. I'd say I'm not that type of teacher up front and let them decide if they wanted to work with me. I'd ask them to take a lesson and if they didn't like the approach then I wouldn't charge them. I just think there is a much, much easier way and I think I might find it experimenting with my ideas.

Not upset at all...

I'm gonna stop replying to you now. 

I would suggest you tone it down. You are trolling now and frankly embarrassing yourself. 

[Phil McGleno]

@Faksakes-I too want to hear how you answer the question posed to you.

Nobody cares about your experiment but you.-One person will not prove anything at all. You were not a good golfer before and switching to lefty does not mean you have forgotten things you learned as a righty.

@iacas has helped people here who he has never met in person. People who have had to read what he has said and watch videos-And they have gotten better just from that.

You do not know what you are talking about.

[Faksakes]

7 minutes ago, boogielicious said:

I would suggest you tone it down. You are trolling now and frankly embarrassing yourself. 

I have a different viewpoint and that means I'm a troll? That's not what I'm doing. This is what I think.

Edited December 18, 2018 by iacas
removed OT stuff and name-calling

[boogielicious]

Just now, Faksakes said:

I have a different viewpoint and that means I'm a troll? That's not what I'm doing. This is what I think.

 

That would be really sad. Just because I don't want to go back and forth with you you're going to ban me? Wow. That's unbelievably childish of you.

Dude, you are being a troll. 

[iacas]

Since you seem to have forgotten:

42 minutes ago, iacas said:

Right, so answer my question. You have a student who sets up with square feet, his hips back too far, with the handle leaning backward and his chin much too high. How do you teach the guy how to set up in a way that will benefit him and in such a way that he will know how to do it in three weeks when his feels have changed?

There you go.

You've been espousing all of these theories, telling me that I'm destroying my students' games… etc. Answer the question. It's awfully simple. Doesn't even involve correcting a dynamic swing flaw.