Advice Rule 10.2a What Club Did You Hit?

[SAGolfLuvr]

Good Day Golfers. I don't see a clear explanation on whether it is a penalty to ask a competitor in your group "What club did you hit?" during stroke play. Would I get a 2 stroke penalty for asking? Would he also get a 2 stroke penalty if he told me? What if I peek at his bag to see what club he just hit? Would that be a penalty? Lastly, which version of the 2019 rules clearly explain these scenarios?

[bkuehn1952]

58 minutes ago, SAGolfLuvr said:

Good Day Golfers. I don't see a clear explanation on whether it is a penalty to ask a competitor in your group "What club did you hit?" during stroke play. Would I get a 2 stroke penalty for asking? Would he also get a 2 stroke penalty if he told me? What if I peek at his bag to see what club he just hit? Would that be a penalty? Lastly, which version of the 2019 rules clearly explain these scenarios?

The Rules state a player should neither give advice nor take advice.  Advice is defined in the Rules and you should look at the definition.  Asking what club someone hit would typically fall into "advice" and one would receive a 2 stroke penalty.  If the other player answered, then he/she typically would be giving advice and that would be a 2 stroke penalty.

Looking into (but not touching) another player's bag is generally available information.  It is there in front of you and needs no interpretation. Moving something to peer into the bag would be a breach of seeking "advice" since the info gained is not public knowledge or readily available to everyone.

Much of the "Interpretations" section of the Rules has been erased as there have been no interpretations made on the 2019 Rules.  Until an interpretation is needed, we go by the written Rule.

[Rulesman]

The Definition of Advice includes: 

Any verbal comment or action (such as showing what club was just used to make a stroke) that is intended to influence a player in:

• Choosing a club,
• Making a stroke, or
• Deciding how to play during a hole or round.

However, Examples of comments or actions that are not advice include: 

A player looks into another player's bag to determine which club he or she used for the last stroke without touching or moving anything.

But note the use of the words intended to influence above. This is causing some debate in some circles.

[colin007]

2 minutes ago, Rulesman said:

The Definition of Advice includes: 

Any verbal comment or action (such as showing what club was just used to make a stroke) that is intended to influence a player in

• Deciding how to play during a hole or round.

.

So if I'm visiting a friend out of state and playing a course I've never seen before, I can't ask him details on the layout of a hole with a blind tee shot?

[iacas]

23 minutes ago, colin007 said:

So if I'm visiting a friend out of state and playing a course I've never seen before, I can't ask him details on the layout of a hole with a blind tee shot?

That's general knowledge. Not the same as the question asked in the OP.

You can ask "is there a creek down there" or your friend can say "there's a creek down there at about 250."

He cannot say "Just hit a hybrid off this tee."

[WarrenB]

That’s why if you are Hitting second and your competition is looking at your clubs to get an idea you pull whatever club gets him in trouble. Either longer or short then after he hits go back to the bag. jack Nicholas and Arnold did this all the time

[colin007]

46 minutes ago, iacas said:

That's general knowledge. Not the same as the question asked in the OP.

You can ask "is there a creek down there" or your friend can say "there's a creek down there at about 250."

He cannot say "Just hit a hybrid off this tee."

If I go, "what's this hole do?" and he says "it's a driver hole" is that no bueno?

[iacas]

1 minute ago, colin007 said:

If I go, "what's this hole do?" and he says "it's a driver hole" is that no bueno?

Correct. No good. He can say general knowledge types of things, and that's it. Look up the definition of "Advice" please:

Any verbal comment or action (such as showing what club was just used to make a stroke) that is intended to influence a player in:

• Choosing a club,
• Making a stroke, or
• Deciding how to play during a hole or round.

But advice does not include public information, such as:

• The location of things on the course such as the hole, the putting green, the fairway, penalty areas, bunkers, or another player’s ball,
• The distance from one point to another, or
• The Rules.

[colin007]

Kewl thanks!

[SAGolfLuvr]

Gentlemen Thanks for the discussion. So that rule has not been changed or relaxed. It always felt wrong to me and I always cringe when asked or if I hear someone asking someone else what club they just used. Thanks again.

[Rulesman]

26 minutes ago, SAGolfLuvr said:

Gentlemen Thanks for the discussion. So that rule has not been changed or relaxed. It always felt wrong to me and I always cringe when asked or if I hear someone asking someone else what club they just used. Thanks again.

The wording has changed subtly from 'that could influence ....' to 'intended to influence'

[iacas]

9 minutes ago, Rulesman said:

The wording has changed subtly from 'that could influence ....' to 'intended to influence'

Not a fan.

[Vinsk]

21 minutes ago, iacas said:

Not a fan.

Maybe something to address at the rules convention? 

[Missouri Swede]

5 hours ago, WarrenB said:

That’s why if you are Hitting second and your competition is looking at your clubs to get an idea you pull whatever club gets him in trouble. Either longer or short then after he hits go back to the bag. jack Nicholas and Arnold did this all the time

Would that violate the rule as well, since it’s an action that is intended to influence a player?

[iacas]

7 minutes ago, Missouri Swede said:

Would that violate the rule as well, since it’s an action that is intended to influence a player?

It’s not advice.

[WarrenB]

3 hours ago, Missouri Swede said:

Would that violate the rule as well, since it’s an action that is intended to influence a player?

Only if you say anything keeping your mouth shut is the key. 

[drewdrew]

i understand the rule about asking what club you hit 

is not a penalty if all players have hit their 

shots already therefore not giving you any knowledge as to how to play the hole

drew

[Ruler]

On 2/25/2019 at 12:35 AM, Rulesman said:

The wording has changed subtly from 'that could influence ....' to 'intended to influence'

And for a good reason. Excellent change.

14 hours ago, drewdrew said:

i understand the rule about asking what club you hit 

is not a penalty if all players have hit their 

shots already therefore not giving you any knowledge as to how to play the hole

drew

What if there are 4 players on a par3 and players 1 and 2 have already played their shots and player 1 asks player 2 what club did he use and he responds. If players 3 and 4 hear his response is that a breach and if so, by whom?