Cell Phone GPS Apps Legal or Not?

[k14]

Originally Posted by jwrussell

What I don't get is the guy's edit and clarification at the end:

None of this makes any sense to me.  You can use the phone for non-golfing purposes even though all of the features that supposedly make it illegal to use as a GPS are just as accessible, if not MORESO than if you are using a GPS APP?  That makes absolutely no sense.  And if you are allowed to take the phone on to the course "providing [you] do not access any freature that might assist...in [your] play", why on EARTH woudln't you be able to use the GPS APP under the same restrictions???

If the rule says the device is illegal to use as a distance measuring device because it can do other things, then it's illegal, period.  The above rationalizations do nothing but muddy the water even further.

Yeah and that is what makes the whole ruling totally confusing and thus the reason for my previous post. If the rules allow you to use the phone for purposes other than distance measuring how does anyone know that you haven't used the compass or distance measuring program. You have to trust the player to be honest. But then if you are using the distance measuring program you are disqualified. It is totally contradictory and the only way to get rid of all confusion is to ban the use of cell phones on the course and I can't see that happening any time soon!

[iacas]

Originally Posted by jwrussell

What I don't get is the guy's edit and clarification at the end:

Basically:

1. If you're allowed to use a GPS, you can't use the iPhone just as you can't use a laser rangefinder that also measures slope.
2. If you're not allowed to use GPS, the Rules of Golf don't prevent you from HAVING a phone on the golf course. You're simply prohibited from using ANY function (weather, GPS, etc.) that would help you in your play.

Makes sense to me.

[zeg]

Originally Posted by jwrussell

What I don't get is the guy's edit and clarification at the end:

None of this makes any sense to me.  You can use the phone for non-golfing purposes even though all of the features that supposedly make it illegal to use as a GPS are just as accessible, if not MORESO than if you are using a GPS APP?  That makes absolutely no sense.  And if you are allowed to take the phone on to the course "providing [you] do not access any freature that might assist...in [your] play", why on EARTH woudln't you be able to use the GPS APP under the same restrictions???

If the rule says the device is illegal to use as a distance measuring device because it can do other things, then it's illegal, period.  The above rationalizations do nothing but muddy the water even further.

The rule (14-3) says, "Except as provided in the Rules , during a stipulated round the player must not use any artificial device or unusual equipment , or use any equipment in an unusual manner: [...] b. For the purpose of gauging or measuring distance or conditions that might affect his play"  (omitted unrelated things you also cannot use unusual equipment to do).  The rules, therefore, only make it illegal to use unusual equipment to gauge or measure distance or conditions that affect play.  You can carry such a device around, you can use your laser rangefinder to put on a light show while you're waiting to tee off, etc, you just cannot, under the ordinary rules, use it to measure distances or conditions.

The local rule grants an exception to this, under the conditions that the device that you use measure distance only.  If you measure a distance, then, you must comply with this rule, because it grants you an exception to the ordinary rules.  If you don't use a device to measure distance, the local rule is never invoked: it doesn't add any additional prohibitions, and using your phone as a phone doesn't violate rule 14-3, regardless of its capabilities.

Originally Posted by iacas

Basically:

If you're allowed to use a GPS, you can't use the iPhone just as you can't use a laser rangefinder that also measures slope.

If you're not allowed to use GPS, the Rules of Golf don't prevent you from HAVING a phone on the golf course. You're simply prohibited from using ANY function (weather, GPS, etc.) that would help you in your play.

Makes sense to me.

Agree.  I'm glad he posted that info, because thinking it through clarified (in my mind, anyway) the rules on this point.  It does lessen my resolve that the rules make sense as written, though.  I don't necessarily think a change is necessary, but given that this means that a Scorecard app is ok to use as long as you don't measure distances, I'm not sure I see that it makes sense to distinguish between capabilities and making measurements.  I still agree that the rules are clear as they are, but I'm sympathetic to the idea that they're not entirely sensible.

[Gerald]

Our Local Rules prohibit the use of cellphones in the clubhouse or at the course ....... (emergency call's no problem) ...... not a single member having a problem with that !

[max power]

Apostrophes are not needed for every word that ends in an "s."

Originally Posted by Gerald

Our Local Rules prohibit the use of cellphones in the clubhouse or at the course ....... (emergency call's no problem) ...... not a single member having a problem with that !

[Stretch]

Originally Posted by max power

Apostrophes are not needed for every word that ends in an "s."

How's your Dutch punctuation?

[max power]

Hey, I like Gerald-that was just a tip.  My Dutch punctuation is probably better than my Dutch pronunciation, but not as good as my Spanish.

Originally Posted by Stretch

How's your Dutch punctuation?

[jwrussell]

Originally Posted by zeg

Agree.  I'm glad he posted that info, because thinking it through clarified (in my mind, anyway) the rules on this point.  It does lessen my resolve that the rules make sense as written, though.  I don't necessarily think a change is necessary, but given that this means that a Scorecard app is ok to use as long as you don't measure distances, I'm not sure I see that it makes sense to distinguish between capabilities and making measurements.  I still agree that the rules are clear as they are, but I'm sympathetic to the idea that they're not entirely sensible.

I didn't mean to imply that the rules were not clear, just that I do not believe they are consistent match with common sense.  To me, it again comes down to the game of golf being one of integrity and honesty.  If I am expected to be trustworthy enough to call penalties on myself then I should be expected to be just as trustworthy while using a GPS app on my iPhone.  I think your quote (bolded) above hits the nail on the head.  I'm not questioning the wording of the rule here, the rule says what it says.  What I'm questioning is the commone sense of it.  I can just as easily mis-use the device if I am using it simply to keep score as I can if using it as a GPS device.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Gerald

Our Local Rules prohibit the use of cellphones in the clubhouse or at the course ....... (emergency call's no problem) ...... not a single member having a problem with that !

Those sound a lot more like your club's rules, not the "Local Rules" (i.e. Rules of Golf). Somewhat important distinction! Rules of Golf make little mention of collared shirts or jeans.

[GolfFans]

I don't quite understand the wisdom of not allowing a compass on device, can someone share the thinking behind this rule?

I suppose I can look at the sun direction to tell the direction and then why rule out devices with compass?  Trying to understand.

[Zeph]

Quote:

Originally Posted by GolfFans

I don't quite understand the wisdom of not allowing a compass on device, can someone share the thinking behind this rule?

I suppose I can look at the sun direction to tell the direction and then why rule out devices with compass?  Trying to understand.

It's not about a compass that only show the sky orientation, which obviously won't give you any useful information.

Quote:

14-3/4 Use of Compass During Round

Q. A player uses a compass during a round to assist him in determining wind direction or the direction of the grain in the greens or for some other similar reason. Is the player in breach of Rule 14-3?

A. Yes. A compass is considered to be an artificial device and must not be used for these purposes.

[jwrussell]

I'm assuming the previous poster has already seen that ruling as well.  If not, I'll go ahead and say, "SO????"

How on earth is using a compass for those uses supposed to help?  Wind direction?  I really don't give a crap what direction the wind is blowing on a compass, I care about what direction it is blowing relative to me.  Doesn't seem like a compass is going to give me any reall information better than what my senses or picking up some grass can.  Same deal with the grain on the green.  I don't get the benefit.

[1par2win]

This is an interesting discussion. I have a situation that crops up a few times a season. I am out on the course and we see that severe weather may be approaching am I understanding this correctly that I am NOT allowed to check the radar app on my phone if I am playing a tournament? I'm not using the app as a measuring device to influence my shot but that doesn't seem to matter since the radar app also provides wind speed and direction that alone would place me in violation of the rules. I suppose the clubhouse will blow the horn suspending play in a situation like this but they wouldn't necessarily blow the horn if it's just rain approaching. That information was nice to have since it was right there on my phone.

The whole thing seems anal to me but the rules are the rules. I never considered this issue before now. Good to know.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by jwrussell

I'm assuming the previous poster has already seen that ruling as well.  If not, I'll go ahead and say, "SO????"

How on earth is using a compass for those uses supposed to help?  Wind direction?  I really don't give a crap what direction the wind is blowing on a compass, I care about what direction it is blowing relative to me.  Doesn't seem like a compass is going to give me any reall information better than what my senses or picking up some grass can.  Same deal with the grain on the green.  I don't get the benefit.

When you are down below the treetops, you can't always get an accurate reading on the wind.  If you have a compass and you know that the wind is from the northwest, then you can get a more precise idea of how it will affect that short iron approach.  Just accept that the reason for the prohibition is that at sometime in the past, somebody did use one, and was perceived to gain some sort of an advantage from it.  Otherwise that decision wouldn't exist.

[zeg]

What Fourputt said, and also this: it might help, might not, but the rule is that NO measurements are allowed.  That avoids any discussion or judgement call about whether the measurement gives an unfair advantage.  Think of it this way, if it doesn't help, you don't need it, and if it does help, it's logical to be against the rules.

Weird cases like using an app to check distant weather conditions can sometimes seem a little unfair, but I don't know that I'd ever base a decision about whether it's safe to play on that sort of data.  I would use it to decide whether to go out at all, but either the immediate conditions are safe or aren't.

Still, for casual rounds I don't personally think it's a terrible sin not to hold to a literal interpretation of this particular rule.  It's one that I think is important in a competition to protect the field, but if all the stakeholders are in the same group, I think the players can reasonably decide for themselves whether there's an unfair advantage.

[GolfFans]

I suppose if I do competition non stop, I should not use an "electronic device" with compass.  Well, I don't play competition that much, so it's good to have something that helps.  I think these devices or Apps do make you a better player.  it helps you understand your game, thus allows you to improve.

[jwrussell]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

When you are down below the treetops, you can't always get an accurate reading on the wind.  If you have a compass and you know that the wind is from the northwest, then you can get a more precise idea of how it will affect that short iron approach.  Just accept that the reason for the prohibition is that at sometime in the past, somebody did use one, and was perceived to gain some sort of an advantage from it.  Otherwise that decision wouldn't exist.

I'm really not good at "just accepting". But thanks for the explanation, that does help to better understand things a bit.

[Chris G]

I use Golfshot on my iphone now and again not just for yardages but also the scorecard feature to follow my stats.

I play quite a few comps throughout the year, and last year played some Volvo Team Tour dates, there was not a problem with the App been used and also rangefinders were allowed however i dont own one.

If i enter a comp and the iphone is not allowed i dont have a problem with that, again I think its people just finding things to moan about. Again this bloke just reminds me of the usual crowd who just sit there in the club house moaning about everything after a round and just wont understand if they concentrated on their game instead of everything else they might start enjoying it again.