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Hip bump or hip turn? You be the judge..

post #1 of 77
Thread Starter 
This is going to sound like a complete noob, but I finally figured out how to swing a golf club. You have to ROTATE from the top. I was trying so hard to "Bump and turn" like 99.9% of people say and all I got was steep, to the inside, flippy and topping 20% of my shots, pushing 75% and pull-hooking 5%. I can NOT believe how easy it is to hit a 3-wood off a tight lie when you aren't sliding all over the golf course. I was convinced I was turning, but I just wasn't. I fixed the following problems all with 10 minutes of camera work over two days and a critical eye:

* No longer fall forward after my swing
* Club is flat on the downswing
* You can actually see my left hip pocket when my shoulders are square at impact
* Finish isn't contrived at the last minute to make it look like I swung correctly

Best range session ever. I was carrying 4-irons into a net 200 yards out that I'd hit 1 out of 20 before. It felt like shooting fish in a barrel. Special thanks to the sand trap guys who told me: "It looks like you might have quit on your turn." Those kinds of things got me thinking in the right direction. Special thanks also to Ben Hogan and his great book on fundamentals.
post #2 of 77

Re: Ah ha! I got it!

Yeah it's not much of hip bump but it is still there. I find if i don't bump, especially with my driver i'll hit a snap hook.
post #3 of 77
Thread Starter 

Re: Ah ha! I got it!

I'd like to clarify and also make a reference to this thread: http://thesandtrap.com/forum/showthread.php?t=29765

When I say rotate from the top, I mean turn around your right leg, keep your right butt cheek in a fixed at the top, and rotate back to the left. If you think about it, the lateral motion will be accomplished through this move with zero intentional sliding. Both movements are purely rotational in nature and the lateral motion occurs as a byproduct of the transfer of the rotational axis from the right hip socket to the left hip socket during the transition.
post #4 of 77

Re: Ah ha! I got it!

Originally Posted by bunkerputt View Post
I'd like to clarify and also make a reference to this thread: http://thesandtrap.com/forum/showthread.php?t=29765

When I say rotate from the top, I mean turn around your right leg, keep your right butt cheek in a fixed at the top, and rotate back to the left. If you think about it, the lateral motion will be accomplished through this move with zero intentional sliding. Both movements are purely rotational in nature and the lateral motion occurs as a byproduct of the transfer of the rotational axis from the right hip socket to the left hip socket during the transition.
i think the mental thought of a rotation around the right butt cheek (left cheek for us lefties) is a great thought. My ball contact has imroved alot with that concept.
post #5 of 77

Re: Ah ha! I got it!

Originally Posted by bunkerputt View Post
I'd like to clarify and also make a reference to this thread: http://thesandtrap.com/forum/showthread.php?t=29765

When I say rotate from the top, I mean turn around your right leg, keep your right butt cheek in a fixed at the top, and rotate back to the left. If you think about it, the lateral motion will be accomplished through this move with zero intentional sliding. Both movements are purely rotational in nature and the lateral motion occurs as a byproduct of the transfer of the rotational axis from the right hip socket to the left hip socket during the transition.
Does the following describe what you are feeling? Its what I have been working on lately.

"Now, maintaining the shoulders in the fully turned position, we simply commence the downward swing of the left hand and arm. That is how the downswing starts, and nothing could be simpler!

I stress again, the SHOULDERS MUST REMAIN IN THE FULLY TURNED POSITION at the beginning of the downswing! The same left foot action that has "charged" the hands with power is enabling us to control the shoulders.

By keeping the shoulders fully turned the left hand and arm can swing freely from the left shoulder, taking the club-head down into the ball on a club line that will result in a swing into and along the line of flight through impact."
post #6 of 77
Thread Starter 

Re: Ah ha! I got it!

Originally Posted by cirem22 View Post
i think the mental thought of a rotation around the right butt cheek (left cheek for us lefties) is a great thought. My ball contact has imroved alot with that concept.
It seems like there is a ton of confusion surrounding this issue...namely what starts the downswing EXACTLY. Half the people say rotate the hips, half the people say slide the hips. The sliders seem like they are saying to start with a "slide" (or "bump") because they see lateral motion when viewing good players swings on video. But when you hear accomplished players describe it, they refer more often to a "turning" motion rather than a "bump" motion....case in point, Ben Hogan's book. To be sure, the lateral motion is definitely there, but the HUGE difference is in how it is accomplished. To the slider, there is an artificial "bump" towards the target of the entire hip structure (one might ask to where EXACTLY), followed by some attempt to rotate them. But with centering the transition around the right butt cheek (left for lefties ) all of those issues are eliminated and the lateral motion happens automatically. How exactly?

Well, it's really pretty simple. This description assumes a right hander, BTW. The hips rotate clockwise 45 degrees or so away from the target on the backswing around an imaginary point roughly in the center of the hips when the right side is "firm". This moves the right femoral head TOWARDS THE TARGET! This is actually where the lateral motion occurs... concealed in the backswing hip pivot. We know that the right femoral head moves towards the target because the rear leg straightens slightly allowing for this rotation. Then something somewhat magical occurs: the axis of rotation transfers from the center of the pelvis to a point near the surface of the right butt cheek. Because of the transfer of the axis of rotation, a counter-clockwise rotation now moves the hips toward the target. At this point the axis shifts yet again to the left leg and the hips continue rotating to the finish. Now, I mentioned that the lateral motion is really concealed in the backswing hip pivot. Maybe a better analogy would be that the backswing hip pivot makes a (lateral) deposit, and the downswing hip pivot cashes in on it.

So, in reality, we have accomplished a lateral move purely by rotating and transferring the axes of rotation. Hence, there is no real sliding going on, but there is definitely lateral motion going on. The moral is that when Ben Hogan says he starts the downswing by rotating his left hip backwards, he really means it....he just didn't say where he fixed the axis.

This really is, IMO a better way to swing the golf club. I think this is mainly because lateral motion has no real axis. It is simply a motion from one point to another. Plus, we know that we are trying to rotate through the golf swing regardless of whether we think we need to "bump" some or not. Why not just rotate?
post #7 of 77

Re: Ah ha! I got it!

Why artificial bump? As far as I can see, the hips slide, bump or whatever towards the target from the top of the backswing. How much and when they rotate determine the angle the club will travel on. Rotate too fast and you'll pull it, rotate too late and you'll push the ball. The hips turn 30-45 degrees in the backswing, by the time you reach the ball, they will ideally be turned back to zero, or somewhere close to it. The hips has to move laterally towards the target to get the weight shifted to the left foot. If you only rotated, the hips would not move forwards, like shown on every picture in the hips slide thread. They will rotate at the same time as they slide.
Then something somewhat magical occurs
Here you lost me. I have to rely on something magical to occur?
post #8 of 77
Thread Starter 

Re: Ah ha! I got it!

Zeph,

Originally Posted by Zeph View Post
The hips turn 30-45 degrees in the backswing, by the time you reach the ball, they will ideally be turned back to zero, or somewhere close to it.
If by "you" you mean the club, this is just not true. The hips are open somewhat at impact because the separation between the 30-45 degree turn of the hips and the 90 or so degree turn of the shoulders is preserved to some degree. If instead you mean by the time the hips reach the ball, they will be turned back to zero, this might be the case, but still, since they were 30-45 degrees open "pre-bump", assuming what you are saying, the bump would have to rotate the hips 30-45 degrees in the other direction to get back to zero. I'm assuming this is what you mean because later you say they will rotate the same time as they slide.

Originally Posted by Zeph View Post
The hips has to move laterally towards the target to get the weight shifted to the left foot.
True.

Originally Posted by Zeph View Post
If you only rotated, the hips would not move forwards, like shown on every picture in the hips slide thread.
Not true. The first part, that is...not sure about every picture in the hip slide thread. It is possible to move laterally by only rotating. This is the big key. That's what my point is. The way this works is that ROTATION ALWAYS REQUIRES AN AXIS. What is moving in a straight line is not the hips, but the axis they are rotating around.

Originally Posted by Zeph View Post
They will rotate at the same time as they slide.
This is what I am saying, but your previous comment makes me wonder whether it is what you are really saying...

What I am saying is this: imagine that the following structure represents the hips when viewed from the top as if looking down the spine and ignore the fact that the hips are square to the target line: (--)

At no time does this occur: <--- (--)

That is, regardless of the angular orientation of the hips, there is not a purely lateral motion such that if you took a cross-section of the hips viewed from the top at the instant before the "slide" and compared it to the end of the slide, they would be identical in terms of angle open or closed, only shifted in some direction.

Maybe this is all clear to you already, however. Keep in mind this is a tough thing to discuss without animations, which is why there is so much confusion surrounding it. So apologies if I'm preaching to the choir. No disrespect intended at all

Originally Posted by Zeph View Post
Here you lost me. I have to rely on something magical to occur?
That's where most people get lost...hence the confusion and why I call it "magical". I'm convinced that understanding the transition is the kind of thing that requires a lot of "lateral" thinking
post #9 of 77

Re: Ah ha! I got it!

Originally Posted by Zeph View Post
The hips has to move laterally towards the target to get the weight shifted to the left foot. If you only rotated, the hips would not move forwards, like shown on every picture in the hips slide thread. They will rotate at the same time as they slide.

This is the way I have always been taught. Without the initial bump, your weight would stay on the back foot.
post #10 of 77
Thread Starter 

Re: Ah ha! I got it!

Originally Posted by TN94z View Post
This is the way I have always been taught. Without the initial bump, your weight would stay on the back foot.
Define bump.. Maybe we are talking about the same thing..
post #11 of 77

Re: Ah ha! I got it!

Originally Posted by bunkerputt View Post
Zeph,
Not true. The first part, that is...not sure about every picture in the hip slide thread. It is possible to move laterally by only rotating. This is the big key. That's what my point is. The way this works is that ROTATION ALWAYS REQUIRES AN AXIS. What is moving in a straight line is not the hips, but the axis they are rotating around.
This is the part I don't get.

Then what is the axis and how can you move the axis without moving the hips?
post #12 of 77

Re: Ah ha! I got it!

Originally Posted by Zeph View Post
This is the part I don't get.

Then what is the axis and how can you move the axis without moving the hips?
I never did quite understand all the jargon - as a linear thinker, I see the hips taking charge, but not dominating any swing thoughts - which could lead to a violent "fade".

- to initiate the takeaway, begin to open/rotate the hips to the right (clockwise as seen from above)
- almost instantaneously, the body naturally follows, as do the shoulders/arms (the unit)
- at the top of the swing (and this all happens withing a millisecond), the opening/rotating of the hips in the other direction (left or counterclockwise) initiates the downswing
- at this time the club is reaching its apex and drops into "the slot". At this point the wrists are "cocked"
- from this point the hips are leading the body, which lead the shoulders/arms, and finally the club through the impact zone.

I see the swing as one continuous movement - when I break it down into its individual components (other than how they relate to one another in order) I start to bring a lot of other conflicting information that I've read/heard over the years.
post #13 of 77

Re: Ah ha! I got it!

Originally Posted by sean_miller View Post
- at the top of the swing (and this all happens withing a millisecond), the opening/rotating of the hips in the other direction (left or counterclockwise) initiates the downswing
That's a problem spot right there. The hips move six to twelve inches forward at this point as well. Otherwise there's no room for the club to drop into the slot and your weight stays back or at best in the middle instead of getting to your left side.
post #14 of 77

Re: Ah ha! I got it!

Originally Posted by sean_miller View Post
- at the top of the swing (and this all happens withing a millisecond), the opening/rotating of the hips in the other direction (left or counterclockwise) initiates the downswing
This is the part I disagree with. I see it happening like this:

-the SHOULDERS MUST REMAIN IN THE FULLY TURNED POSITION at the beginning of the downswing, the arms/hands initiate the downswing while the shoulders are in the fully turned position.

- this action is what initiates the hip slide. Its a very small move but the lower body is reacting to the arms pulling down. The slide is somewaht lateral clearing the way for the arms to drop into the slot.

- the clubface is open dropping into the slot, the hips turn closing the clubface for impact. The result is an in to out swing.

Very interesting topic all.
post #15 of 77

Re: Ah ha! I got it!

Originally Posted by DeanS View Post
...the arms/hands initiate the downswing while the shoulders are in the fully turned position.

- this action is what initiates the hip slide. Its a very small move but the lower body is reacting to the arms pulling down. The slide is somewaht lateral clearing the way for the arms to drop into the slot.
I've heard it just the opposite in every lesson I've ever had. I've always been told that the lower body should start the downswing, which makes sense. You coil from the top down, so you should uncoil in reverse from the bottom up. The rotation/slide of the hips is what pulls the arms through. Gravity will drop your arms down into the slot if your arms are relaxed as they should be, and the turn of your hips will pull them around naturally.

Watch any pro swing in slow motion, you'll see that the hips actually start rolling back around towards the target while the hands/arms are *finishing the backswing*. Their hips initiate the downswing, not the hands.

This is a great video, note how his hips start moving while his arms are still settling at the top of the backswing:

post #16 of 77

Re: Ah ha! I got it!

Originally Posted by iacas View Post
That's a problem spot right there. The hips move six to twelve inches forward at this point as well. Otherwise there's no room for the club to drop into the slot and your weight stays back or at best in the middle instead of getting to your left side.
The process does indeed involve a movement to the left. You can feel the torque in your left quad muscle (I bet Sid will be a helluva a golfer when he retires) but I try not to think about while on the downswing or I exaggerate it. Like I implied earlier, I don't really know what I'm talking about.
post #17 of 77

Re: Ah ha! I got it!

Originally Posted by amcquay View Post
I've heard it just the opposite in every lesson I've ever had. I've always been told that the lower body should start the downswing, which makes sense. You coil from the top down, so you should uncoil in reverse from the bottom up. The rotation/slide of the hips is what pulls the arms through. Gravity will drop your arms down into the slot if your arms are relaxed as they should be, and the turn of your hips will pull them around naturally.

Watch any pro swing in slow motion, you'll see that the hips actually start rolling back around towards the target while the hands/arms are *finishing the backswing*. Their hips initiate the downswing, not the hands.

This is a great video, note how his hips start moving while his arms are still settling at the top of the backswing:
I don't disagree with anything you are saying. All that power comes from the bottom up much the same way as a coiled spring unwinds. What I'm trying to do is put a steering wheel on it or give it direction. The small move at the top with the arms starts the process. The swing unfolds in its proper sequence. The body reacts to the arms.

There is an easy test. Set up and charge the back foot, keeping the shoulders turned, pull the club down a foot. See if you hips slide or see if you can keep your hips from sliding. The lower body is charged and wants to go so keeping from sliding is not as easy as it sounds.

I'm at work and can't see your video but there is more than one way to swing a golf and if starting the swing is that is easier, I'm not good enough to argue against it.
post #18 of 77

Re: Ah ha! I got it!

Originally Posted by DeanS View Post
This is the part I disagree with. I see it happening like this . . .
You do and think whatever makes the golf swing work for you - I tend to see the arms then the club as the last things to move forward in the transition - as a couple of mid-cappers we probably have a lot to learn.
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