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post #1 of 23
Thread Starter 

Here's one I had never head of before, but happened in a junior tournament last week.

 

Two Competitors A & B are on the green.  B's marker is in the way and A asks him to move mark.  B says no and walks away, are you allowed to move the mark and then put it back?

 

The kid in the competition putted around the marker, I think i would've moved it.

post #2 of 23

20-1. Lifting And Marking

A ball to be lifted under the Rules may be lifted by the player, his partner or another person authorized by the player. In any such case, the player is responsible for any breach of the Rules.

The position of the ball must be marked before it is lifted under a Rule that requires it to be replaced. If it is not marked, the player incurs a penalty of one stroke and the ball must be replaced. If it is not replaced, the player incurs the general penalty for breach of this Rule but there is no additional penalty under Rule 20-1.

If a ball or ball-marker is accidentally moved in the process of lifting the ball under a Rule or marking its position, the ball or ball-marker must be replaced. There is no penalty, provided the movement of the ball or ball-marker is directly attributable to the specific act of marking the position of or lifting the ball. Otherwise, the player incurs a penalty of one stroke under this Rule or Rule 18-2a.

Exception: If a player incurs a penalty for failing to act in accordance with Rule5-3 or 12-2, there is no additional penalty under Rule 20-1.

Note: The position of a ball to be lifted should be marked by placing a ball-marker, a small coin or other similar object immediately behind the ball. If the ball-marker interferes with the play, stance or stroke of another player, it should be placed one or more clubhead-lengths to one side.

Refer to the highlighted last sentence of the "Note:" in Section of 20-1 of the USGA rules and decisions.

I'm not a rules guy so I don't know if the "Note" section carries any weight?

I'll let the more knowledgeable members answer that.

At a minimum I would say that Player B violated the sporting spirit of the game.

 

 

 

post #3 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by ay33660 View Post
 


At a minimum I would say that Player B violated the sporting spirit of the game.

This. Total dick move.

post #4 of 23

I don't know about moving the marker after the player already said no. I'd let them putt first if their marker was really in the way and wasn't flush with the green. If it was flush with the green I'd putt over it and not let that kid get to me by being a weasel.

 

If it wasn't a competition and it was just my buddies and me, if one of us said no, then one of us would just go over and step on their marker to make it more flush... but that's how we roll... someone's ball is always getting run over by a cart but we have a good time regardless.

post #5 of 23

Quote:

22-2. Ball Interfering With Play

Except when a ball is in motion, if a player considers that another ball might interfere with his play, he may have it lifted.

A ball lifted under this Rule must be replaced (see Rule 20-3). The ball must not be cleaned, unless it lies on the putting green (see Rule 21).

In stroke play, a player required to lift his ball may play first rather than lift the ball.

Note 1: Except on the putting green, a player may not lift his ball solely because he considers that it might interfere with the play of another player. If a player lifts his ball without being asked to do so, he incurs a penalty of one stroke for a breach of Rule 18-2a, but there is no additional penalty under Rule 22.

Note 2: When another ball is in motion, a ball that might influence the movement of the ball in motion must not be lifted.

 

First, I would interpret the "may" in the first sentence to mean that the player requesting that the ball be moved has that option, not that the opponent has the option of complying with the request.  Think of it this way--if B says no, then A cannot have the ball marked, which conflicts with the rule.  

 

Second, the third paragraph talks about a player "required" to lift his ball.

 

So I think its pretty clear that he was required to mark.

 

Quote:
 

PENALTY FOR BREACH OF RULE:

Match play – Loss of hole; Stroke play – Two strokes.

post #6 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by dsc123 View Post
 

First, I would interpret the "may" in the first sentence to mean that the player requesting that the ball be moved has that option, not that the opponent has the option of complying with the request.  Think of it this way--if B says no, then A cannot have the ball marked, which conflicts with the rule.  

Second, the third paragraph talks about a player "required" to lift his ball.

So I think its pretty clear that he was required to mark.

 

 

Yea I would say that if a person requests a ball to be marked and lifted, unless it is unreasonable, then that player must do so. Doesn't look like their is any penalty associated for not complying with the request though. 

post #7 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by saevel25 View Post
 

 

 

Yea I would say that if a person requests a ball to be marked and lifted, unless it is unreasonable, then that player must do so. Doesn't look like their is any penalty associated for not complying with the request though. 

 

I think its a 2-stroke penalty.  By refusing, the opponent violated rule 22-2.

post #8 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by jsgolfer View Post
 

Here's one I had never head of before, but happened in a junior tournament last week.

 

Two Competitors A & B are on the green.  B's marker is in the way and A asks him to move mark.  B says no and walks away, are you allowed to move the mark and then put it back?

 

The kid in the competition putted around the marker, I think i would've moved it.

Goog Lord!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Were there any adults in the vicinity?

Was he also playing stymies?

 

I would have moved that jerk 50 feet into the air.

That is absolutely appalling.

post #9 of 23

I think the only recourse is to report it to the committee for them to consider it a serious breach of etiquette under 33-7.  He better have some witnesses, though. 

 

In the future, player A should advise player B that he should move his mark and, if he doesn't, he will be reported to the committee and risk disqualification for serious breach of etiquette.  I bet the guy will move his mark if he cares about anything at all.

post #10 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gboroman View Post
 

I think the only recourse is to report it to the committee for them to consider it a serious breach of etiquette under 33-7.  He better have some witnesses, though. 

 

In the future, player A should advise player B that he should move his mark and, if he doesn't, he will be reported to the committee and risk disqualification for serious breach of etiquette.  I bet the guy will move his mark if he cares about anything at all.

The idea that you would even consider refusing such a request beggars belief. Imagine even thinking about it, let alone doing it!

That player should be suspended from his club/team/whatever.

post #11 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by dsc123 View Post
 

 

I think its a 2-stroke penalty.  By refusing, the opponent violated rule 22-2.

 

The player had lifted his ball as required, so I don't see 22-2 as relevant. 

 

The question now becomes is he required to move the mark?  The note in 20-1 indicates that he "should" move it.  As @ay33660 mentioned, does that "should", mean that he "must"?  If so, he would be subject to a 2 stroke penalty for breach of 20-1.   I don't know, so I'm going to wait for @Fourputt, @Dormie1360, or someone else with a bit more formal rules training than me to weigh in here.

 

At a minimum, absent a clear decision or rule that I've missed, I agree with those who consider it to be a serious breach of etiquette and I would bring it to the committee as such.

 

As @Shorty so eloquently said.....where the hell were the adults on this one?!

 

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shorty View Post
 

The idea that you would even consider refusing such a request beggars belief. Imagine even thinking about it, let alone doing it!

That player should be suspended from his club/team/whatever.

 

After he gets his young ass wore out behind the clubhouse!  

post #12 of 23

Some players think they can play under the rules of golf as they should and abide by the etiquette as long as it benefits them. I played golf with a guy who would complain if any noise was made during his swing or if people gave him a hard time on the course yet he was the first one to break etiquette in the group. he would drive his ball into the trees and just take off to look for it while there was still 3 players yet to tee off. He would say things like "Don't shank this drive" or "don't miss this putt" while you were getting ready to swing. bottom line is theres way to many babies that play this game, mainly cause it was for the uber rich country club snobs for so many years. (no i don't think every member at a country club is a snob). maybe I should just call them spoiled brats. Income and club member really has nothing to do with it. But the point being made is constant, a player might talk in your backswing or take off his glove or anything that would violate standard etiquette on the course but then that same player will throw a temper tantrum if you walk across their putting line. Bottom line player B is a bi*ch

post #13 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by David in FL View Post
 

The note in 20-1 indicates that he "should" move it.  As @ay33660 mentioned, does that "should", mean that he "must"?

No idea how it works in the golf rules, but when we (engineers at my office) use the word "should," we consider it a strong suggestion, but not a "must."  If we want to indicate a requirement, we use the word "shall."

 

Also interested in the experts takes. :)

post #14 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by David in FL View Post
 

 

The player had lifted his ball as required, so I don't see 22-2 as relevant. 

 

 

Ah, I misunderstood and thought he was refusing to mark altogether. 

post #15 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by dsc123 View Post
 

 

Ah, I misunderstood and thought he was refusing to mark altogether. 

But he did refuse. The OP said this pig just said "no" walked away.

post #16 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shorty View Post
 

But he did refuse. The OP said this pig just said "no" walked away.

I misread the post and thought he said the player left the ball on the ground, in the way.  

post #17 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shorty View Post
 

But he did refuse. The OP said this pig just said "no" walked away.

Yeah, but he's specifically talking about Rule 22-2 right now.  A BALL interefering with play.  His ball wasn't interfering because he'd already marked it.  It was his mark that was interfering.  Will likely fall under a different rule.

post #18 of 23

I don't think he has to move the mark but I believe you could have told him to go ahead and putt his ball.

 

I didn't see anything in the decision book regarding the OP's situation but this could be a breach of etiquette and should be brought to the committees attention.

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