Par in Match play

Does it matter what par is on a hole?

The reason for the question is this. In a tournament round tomorrow I have a match vs a female player. There are two holes that play as 4  for men and  5 for women. I will also be giving a stroke on both holes. If I make a four and she makes a 6 do I win the hole? The question seems to be that she made a bogey but with her stroke she pared the hole, as did I. My thought is that par does not come into play in match play, it comes down to who gets the ball in the hole with the fewest strokes, adjusted for handicap.

In the past, the club has smashed birdies when she got a 4 and a guy got a 3 with the reasoning that its a birdie pool, not a skins game.

Seems to me, if they are right, I am giving two shots on the holes in question.

Thanks for any insight.

From usga.org handicap decisions:

That is really an unfair ruling since it is a par 5 for women for a reason.

Yes.

I don't know how you would do it in your handicapping system, but in ours you would make an adjustment to the lady's handicap depending on the difference between the men's and the ladies' Standard Scratch Scores.  This on my course, for example, means that 2 strokes are added to the  lady's handicap and that's the handicap that is applied.  You give the difference between your handicap and the adjusted one.

I mention this just as probably useless  info because  it doesn't tell you how to make a similar adjustment in your system if indeed your system needs to have such an adjustment made.  The opening yes is definite, however.

That nailed it, and thank you very much for the link!

We pretty much do the same thing.  First we look at the individual handicaps based on the tees each player is playing.  We then adjust the handicaps based on the difference in course rating, which is really what a scratch golfer would score.

So if I were a 7 handicap on the tee I'm playing and you were a 5 on your tee we would then look at the difference in course ratings for our respective tees,  Say my tee was rated 3.5 strokes higher.  Rounding up I would add 4 strokes to my handicap or subtract 4 from yours.

The end result would be that you would give me 6 strokes, not 2.

Most folks over here don't understand how to do this when competing from different tees.  They incorrectly think you just use your handicap based on the tee you are playing.

The above even works if men and women are playing from the same tees, as long as there is a separate rating for men and women on the tee being played.

Thanks John - that's exactly the same principle based on what each player, man and women would have to score in order for his/her net score to match the scratch score, is it not?

This (the unfairness you point out) is why I absolutely hate it when a course moves the forward tees up only a little on a longer par-4 and just says "well, it's a par-5 for the women." I think the match play rule would be right if every course would put the tees in places that would make the holes comparable -- if it's a driver + fairway wood (expected two shots) expected for the men, then there should be a set of tees in which a female player of similar handicap would also be expected to hit driver + fairway wood. There's one course around here that does it on FOUR holes. Literally: "par 72 men / par 76 women." And there are good logical spots for forward tees on those four holes, too that aren't just ten yards in front of the slightly longer set.

It does.  A course rating is a score for a scratch player.  We do also use a slope system which is more for "bogey" golfers.  t takes into consideration things like forced carries, tight fairways, etc., which are more of a problem for bogey golfers compared to scratch players.

To some of the other comments, also remember that the original question was about net match play, not net stroke play. Handicap allocations for each hole are often different for men and ladies.  If designated correctly, this can compensate for some of the problems.  IE  Par 5's  are often stroke holes.

Having said all that, even when men play each other from the same tees, it's not a perfect system.  Add multiple tees, it's less perfect, add a mixed event...........

Match play is entirely about playing a hole in fewer or more strokes than your opponent and winning, halving  or losing holes.  Par has absolutely nothing to do with it.  Provided the adjustment has been made to the lady's handicap (almost always an increase, only rarely a reduction) the differences between the two opponents have been taken care of in that adjustment.

You need to note that the lady's and the man's handicaps  are  based on different measured courses.

Thanks again for your replies. Neither of the par 4/5's played a role. She conceded the first before reaching the green and the match was over before the second. I picked a good time for my low front 9 of the year,( in spite of club house grumbling), and she could not get off the tee.

I have to say that sometimes the way they measure courses and determine their difficulty is a joke.

All holes are measured the same way using lasers, so I'm not sure what you mean by the way they measure courses.  As far as difficulty, are you talking about how the hole handicaps are allocated or what the slope and course ratings are?  If you are talking about the former, there are a lot of courses that do not follow the recommended procedure.  Usually when a course is first designed it's done mostly by yardage.....which doesn't always give accurate handicap allocations.  You really need to obtain hundreds of scores from players of specific handicap ranges to determine handicap hole allocation.

As far as whether a course is rated correctly, it's a pretty thorough process involving much more than most of us would even think to consider.  I have some friends that rate courses, and have seen the procedure done.  Although you certainly could have a difference in the rating outcome between different rating crews, it should be small.  As far as the way they do it as being a joke, you'd have to be more specific.

Why? What specifically?

Because sometimes a 5600 yd rated 72/121 course is much easier to play than a 5200 yd 69.1/112 rated course. The first one is longer, but has greens that are relatively flat. The second one is shorter but the greens can be brutal.

The rating is not based on length alone. Most of the time rating a course is spent on assessing and determining the values to be assigned to difficulty factors.

eg Green contours, green speed, location of hazards and trees near fairway, location of hazards around greens, depth of bunkers, location of OOB, length of drives if up or down hill. Each item being rated for both scratch and bogey players (male and female).

However, length is the major contributor to the final rating.

Whenever I have played in these "mixed" match play events the course handicaps are assigned to individual players for the tees they are playing.  Then the difference between the two player handicaps is used to determine where strokes are given/received.  E.G. if I am playing the members' tees and have a course handicap of 17 from the members' tees and the woman competitor is playing the forward tees with a course handicap of 20 then I play to scratch and she receives 3 strokes, one on the # 1, 2, & 3 handicap holes.  The par of the hole isn't relevant in match play. BTW this is the handicap system for anytime you play a match with anyone from different tees (or the same tees for that matter) regardless of the gender of the players.

As to how it is decided what the hole handicap is; well I know what the say, e.g. the #1 handicap hole isn't not necessarily the most difficult but rather the hole where the bogie golfer will need a stroke to match the net score of a scratch golfer.  I have played a lot of courses where I thought the fellow who did the assignments of hole handicap was smoking those funny cigarettes, but that just opinion.  They should have bogie golfers making the assignments.

What they should be doing is figuring out at which holes the bogey golfer needs the help against a scratch golfer the most, the least, and in between.