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Two Ruling Questions from Today's Round


gbogey
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So both of these happened today:

  1. I occasionally come way over the top with my FW off the tee and hit a 100 yard dribbler.  Today I did it and it hit the ladies tee marker about 60 yards ahead.  I thought I read recently that if you hit the tee marker you could re-hit without penalty (I was surprised by this), but I can't seem to find it, so was I entitled to a re-hit. I didn't because I was so mad at myself I wanted to suffer.
  2. My ball came to rest on a cart path.  Right next to the path, where one would typically say was the nearest point of relief, was a huge tree.  There would be no place to drop the ball on the ground or take a stance due to the tree.  To me the nearest point of relief was then either across the other side of the cart path or behind the tree where I could take a drop and have a stance that wasn't on the path.  Did I do this right or does the tree make it an unplayable lie and I should add a penalty stroke?

Thanks

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10 hours ago, gbogey said:
  1. I occasionally come way over the top with my FW off the tee and hit a 100 yard dribbler.  Today I did it and it hit the ladies tee marker about 60 yards ahead.  I thought I read recently that if you hit the tee marker you could re-hit without penalty (I was surprised by this), but I can't seem to find it, so was I entitled to a re-hit. I didn't because I was so mad at myself I wanted to suffer.

You play it as it lies. There's nothing about re-hitting for hitting a tee marker.

10 hours ago, gbogey said:
  1.  
  2. My ball came to rest on a cart path.  Right next to the path, where one would typically say was the nearest point of relief, was a huge tree.  There would be no place to drop the ball on the ground or take a stance due to the tree.  To me the nearest point of relief was then either across the other side of the cart path or behind the tree where I could take a drop and have a stance that wasn't on the path.  Did I do this right or does the tree make it an unplayable lie and I should add a penalty stroke?

There's really only one nearest point regardless of where the tree is, and you didn't say where you dropped. That NPR was probably behind the tree, not farther across the cart path. Remember, too though, that the NPR includes your ability to take a stance without interference from the same obstruction (the cart path), so it could be to a different side of the path than the side your ball favors.

At any rate, regardless, find the NPR and then that's it, even if it puts you right in a tree. You do get the one club length arc, so you might be able to drop behind. Just make sure you're no longer still involved with the obstruction.

Edited to add: look at Dave's post a few down.

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17 minutes ago, iacas said:

There's really only one nearest point, and you didn't say where you dropped. It was probably behind the tree, not farther across the cart path. Remember, too though, that the NPR includes your ability to take a stance without interference from the same obstruction (the cart path), so it could be to a different side of the path than the side your ball favors.

At any rate, regardless, find the NPR and then that's it, even if it puts you right behind a tree. You do get the one club length arc, so long as you're not still involved with the obstruction.

 

thanks.  I think I did okay.  I dropped across the cart path.  I think it was equal distance to the spot behind the tree to across the path - the ball was even to the very front of the tree.  Either way, hard to describe, but the drop behind the tree would have been the same shot and might have been easier.  I was pretty close to the green so the tree's limbs didn't come into play and again hard to describe, but where I could take a stance behind the tree would have allowed me to swing at the green without interference from the trunk.

Edited by gbogey
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9 hours ago, gbogey said:

My ball came to rest on a cart path. 

You do not necessary have to take relief from cart path.
When NPR such as your situation would result in a worse scenario,
you can play the ball as it lies on the cart path.  

Edited by Club Rat
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9 hours ago, gbogey said:

thanks.  I think I did okay.  I dropped across the cart path.  I think it was equal distance to the spot behind the tree to across the path - the ball was even to the very front of the tree.  Either way, hard to describe, but the drop behind the tree would have been the same shot and might have been easier.  I was pretty close to the green so the tree's limbs didn't come into play and again hard to describe, but where I could take a stance behind the tree would have allowed me to swing at the green without interference from the trunk.

You should probably take a look at the Interpretations regarding the Definition of Nearest Point of Complete Relief.  Here's a short portion:

Quote

For example, if a player is unable to make a stroke from what appears to be the required relief area as measured from the nearest point of complete relief because either the direction of play is blocked by a tree, or the player is unable to take the backswing for the intended stroke due to a bush, this does not change the fact that the identified point is the nearest point of complete relief.

If your nearest point of relief from the cart path was within the trunk of the tree, you get a relief area of one clublength from that point within the tree.  If you physically can't drop it within the relief area, you don't get relief.  If you CAN drop it, but have no play, you can choose not to take relief.  But there's no guarantee that you'll actually have a shot after you take relief.

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Yes of course, but in that case I likely would have had tree trouble but the two possible NPR gave me a good lie and decent swing.  The real issue was whether the fact where you would normally take relief had a big tree and if that required an unplayable lie.  Since the tree prevents that spot from being relief, I was better off with the drop.

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3 minutes ago, gbogey said:

Yes of course, but in that case I likely would have had tree trouble but the two possible NPR gave me a good lie and decent swing.  The real issue was whether the fact where you would normally take relief had a big tree and if that required an unplayable lie.  Since the tree prevents that spot from being relief, I was better off with the drop.

@DaveP043 is pointing out that your NPR might be "in" the tree.

If you don't like that option, then you have the two club lengths option for an unplayable, which you may take from the original lie on the path OR from your dropped ball after you take relief.

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Director of Instructor Development, 5 Simple Keys®/Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins • Golf Digest "Best Young Teachers in America" 2016-17 • "Best in State" 2017-20 • WNY Section PGA Teacher of the Year 2019 • Penn-State Behrend Head Coach • • • • • • • • • • :aimpoint: :edel: :true_linkswear:

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4 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

You should probably take a look at the Interpretations regarding the Definition of Nearest Point of Complete Relief.  Here's a short portion:

If your nearest point of relief from the cart path was within the trunk of the tree, you get a relief area of one clublength from that point within the tree.  If you physically can't drop it within the relief area, you don't get relief.  If you CAN drop it, but have no play, you can choose not to take relief.  But there's no guarantee that you'll actually have a shot after you take relief.

Now I'm confused - I don't think the NPR is only within one club length.  I get to take relief from both my ball and my stance from being on the path.  I cannot take my stance in the middle of a tree.  Therefore, I either need to go across the cart path or to the back of the tree - I thought across was closer.  But in either case, the angle to the green allowed me to swing without interference from the tree.

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4 minutes ago, gbogey said:

Now I'm confused - I don't think the NPR is only within one club length.  I get to take relief from both my ball and my stance from being on the path.  I cannot take my stance in the middle of a tree.  Therefore, I either need to go across the cart path or to the back of the tree - I thought across was closer.  But in either case, the angle to the green allowed me to swing without interference from the tree.

The tree is not the cart path, so "the tree" doesn't factor in to whether you can take your stance or not.

Your NPR may have very well been inside the tree, and you get one club length from THAT point.

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instructor Development, 5 Simple Keys®/Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins • Golf Digest "Best Young Teachers in America" 2016-17 • "Best in State" 2017-20 • WNY Section PGA Teacher of the Year 2019 • Penn-State Behrend Head Coach • • • • • • • • • • :aimpoint: :edel: :true_linkswear:

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3 minutes ago, gbogey said:

Now I'm confused - I don't think the NPR is only within one club length.  I get to take relief from both my ball and my stance from being on the path.  I cannot take my stance in the middle of a tree.  Therefore, I either need to go across the cart path or to the back of the tree - I thought across was closer.  But in either case, the angle to the green allowed me to swing without interference from the tree.

Your stance in the middle of the tree DOES offer relief from the cart path.  If that point is the nearest to the ball's original position, that's your NPR.  The presence of the tree does NOT prevent that spot from being your nearest point of relief.  You don't get to choose the other side, just because the nearest point presents a problem.

I don't know the details of your circumstance, its quite possible that you did drop in the correct area.  

Dave

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I don't know if I dropped in the right area or not either, but it is likely that my NPR was inside the tree trunk plus a club length.  My drop was likely within two club lengths of that spot, so I should add a penalty stroke for unplayable lie IMO.

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1 minute ago, gbogey said:

I don't know if I dropped in the right area or not either, but it is likely that my NPR was inside the tree trunk plus a club length.

I'm not sure what you're saying here but it feels wrong. The NPR is a point, full stop. Your relief area is the NPR + 1 club length so long as that area is not:

  • closer to the hole
  • closer to the obstruction in such a way that you'd not be taking full relief.

That's it.

So, if your NPR was inside the tree, you get one club length from there, in a radius of some measure (probably about 90° since the cart path is likely running toward the hole, and that's it.

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instructor Development, 5 Simple Keys®/Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins • Golf Digest "Best Young Teachers in America" 2016-17 • "Best in State" 2017-20 • WNY Section PGA Teacher of the Year 2019 • Penn-State Behrend Head Coach • • • • • • • • • • :aimpoint: :edel: :true_linkswear:

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4 minutes ago, iacas said:

I'm not sure what you're saying here but it feels wrong. The NPR is a point, full stop. Your relief area is the NPR + 1 club length so long as that area is not:

  • closer to the hole
  • closer to the obstruction in such a way that you'd not be taking full relief.

That's it.

So, if your NPR was inside the tree, you get one club length from there, in a radius of some measure (probably about 90° since the cart path is likely running toward the hole, and that's it.

The NPR is in the tree.  One club length would not give me any sort of stance to make a shot.  Two club lengths from there would allow me to hit the shot I hit.  Therefore take a penalty for unplayable.

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If you can tell me:

If you are left or right handed

If the tree was to the left or right of the path and how far from the edge

How wide the path was

and if the ball was towards the left or right of the path

I'll try and do a diagram to help sort it out.

But in the meantime look at the diagram in 16.1b here

https://www.randa.org/en/rog/2019/rules/the-rules-of-golf/rule-16

or here

http://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules/rules-2019/rules-of-golf/rules-and-interpretations.html#!ruletype=pe&section=rule&rulenum=16

Edited by Rulesman
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42 minutes ago, gbogey said:

The NPR is in the tree.  One club length would not give me any sort of stance to make a shot.  Two club lengths from there would allow me to hit the shot I hit.  Therefore take a penalty for unplayable.

If that were the case then I would have considered hitting it off the path rather than taking the unplayable

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1 hour ago, Rulesman said:

If you can tell me:

If you are left or right handed

If the tree was to the left or right of the path and how far from the edge

How wide the path was

and if the ball was towards the left or right of the path

I'll try and do a diagram to help sort it out.

 

  • Right Handed
  • Tree right next to cart path on right side - no more than two inches of ground before roots
  • Cart path was about two strides wide, so 5-6 feet
  • Ball was on right edge of cart path, maybe a few inches from the edge
  • Playing from where it lies tree is blocking shot to green
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1 hour ago, klineka said:

If that were the case then I would have considered hitting it off the path rather than taking the unplayable

This is a lesson I sometimes forget, but you should always know where you're going to drop the ball before you pick it up.  Once you have picked it up, you have a couple of choices:

Replace the ball in its original position, with a one stroke penalty

or

Proceed under a rule which allows you to pick up your ball, such as

          Immovable Obstruction, free relief, within a relief area defined by the Nearest Point of Relief, one clublength no closer to the hole,

or

         Unplayable Lie, three options, including 2 clublengths or back on the line or replay the original shot, with one stroke penalty.  Its possible that your drop from an unplayable lie could result in interference from that same immovable obstruction, in which case the process could start over.  But since you've moved the ball, your NPR could be on the other side of the cart path.

There may be other options, but those are the three that come to mind for me.  The moral of the story, don't pick up your ball until you know where you're going to drop it.

 

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Dave

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1 hour ago, gbogey said:
  • Right Handed
  • Tree right next to cart path on right side - no more than two inches of ground before roots
  • Cart path was about two strides wide, so 5-6 feet
  • Ball was on right edge of cart path, maybe a few inches from the edge
  • Playing from where it lies tree is blocking shot to green

If you are right handed and the tree is on the right hand side of the path the NPR is the point where you could take a stance with complete relief from the path. If you add the 1 club length drop area this is either a HUGE tree or has a really shallow root system. 

If the tree is in the line of flight then that is not a good place to drop or just bad luck and pitch out

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