Legs - Is Left Leg Straight Just a Beginner Thing?

[PerfectStriking]

On legs in the downswing and at and through impact, I've been doing a lot of work on legs and feet in my swing and I'm finding that almost treating the legs like doing a squat dead lift to help yank the ball off the ground like a power weight lifter is sort of working with a few variations for a golf swing, it's a work in progress, I can see why Nicklaus said he worked a lot of foot work. It seems logical to try to get power and stability from the legs and also terminate the lower body swing with strong leg muscle resistance for the upper body to then swing through and not just straighten the left leg which seems like a very leg lazy move? I also find a lazy move with the right leg and the two legs working independently to be really odd in the golf swing which seems to be what most of us amateurs do, using both together to pull up and terminate and resist and stabilize seems a really good use of such powerful muscles, I think it is also helping the lower back and left knee as a shock absorber and this shock absorber rather than a late bolt straight leg seems to give more smoothness and spring to the ground part of the swing, and pushing down through the feet almost trying to grab the ground feels solid. Anyone else done work on using leg muscles actively in the swing, particularly at and through impact.

Edited July 12, 2019 by PerfectStriking

[iacas]

Extending the lead leg is a source of speed in the downswing.

 

[PerfectStriking]

3 minutes ago, iacas said:

Extending the lead leg is a source of speed in the downswing.

 

Thanks Erik, yeah I believe a mostly extended lead leg is the correct position at impact, but I don't think it is as passive a thing as it seems to be taught in golf, the only leg muscle active teaching seems to be on the back swing. Down and at and through impact it just seems to be taught as a joint straightening thing of the left leg and the whole active use of muscles in the legs into, at impact and through seems to be never mentioned to us amateurs, particularly the right leg which just seems to be taught as just trailing the hips. I'd say the use of leg muscles at impact is almost totally not mentioned into, at and through impact, it really confuses me how such big muscles and such athletic and powerful parts of the body can be taught as so passive into and through impact?

[iacas]

I don’t agree that it’s taught as passive.

[saevel25]

24 minutes ago, PerfectStriking said:

 I'd say the use of leg muscles at impact is almost totally not mentioned into, at and through impact, it really confuses me how such big muscles and such athletic and powerful parts of the body can be taught as so passive into and through impact? 

I never been told that this is a passive thing. Actually, I've seen proper extension being suggested before as advice. Extension including the straightening of the left leg. If you keep the left leg bent, then you will be keeping the left hip bent more and will not extend properly into the finish.

[PerfectStriking]

9 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

I never been told that this is a passive thing. Actually, I've seen proper extension being suggested before as advice. Extension including the straightening of the left leg. If you keep the left leg bent, then you will be keeping the left hip bent more and will not extend properly into the finish.

Hi, I'm not saying keep it bent, I'm saying the concept of just straightening the joint in the left leg through impact and ignoring the muscles working in other ways in the leg and the right leg muscles almost totally into and at impact and through seems too passive and simple when the legs are so strong and capable of doing so much more a la Jack Nicklaus. Imagine doing a dead lift in weights and being told you just need to straighten your left leg joint or sprinting 50 metres and being told just straighten your left leg as you run, I don't know about you but I think most people think about their muscles in both legs doing these activities not the straightness of one of their leg joints. It seems to be just too passive and simplistic to me.

Out of interest what active leg muscle usage have you been taught into, at and through impact excluding the back swing? 

Edited July 12, 2019 by PerfectStriking

[PerfectStriking]

31 minutes ago, iacas said:

I don’t agree that it’s taught as passive.

What is taught on and at and through impact for the leg muscles other than just straightening a joint and following with your right leg? It would be a great help for me to know. Particularly I'd be interested to know what active use of leg muscles you've seen taught into, at and through impact not in the back swing and especially the right leg? It really is a mystery.

Edited July 12, 2019 by PerfectStriking

[iacas]

Your trail leg doesn’t do much during the downswing.

And the lead leg doesn’t really do any rotation. That’s the hip/core. The leg pretty much does what the knee does - flex and extend.

[PerfectStriking]

4 minutes ago, iacas said:

Your trail leg doesn’t do much during the downswing.

And the lead leg doesn’t really do any rotation. That’s the hip/core. The leg pretty much does what the knee does - flex and extend.

Thanks Erik, I should pay you for this as you have just saved me going to a teacher as I was going to ask exactly this from one of them, but I thought they would have this answer and so if I don't agree this is the way to use my legs into impact I will just have to find my own way or learn the hard way I am wrong 🙂 thanks again!

[Zippo]

1 hour ago, PerfectStriking said:

Thanks Erik, I should pay you for this as you have just saved me going to a teacher as I was going to ask exactly this from one of them, but I thought they would have this answer and so if I don't agree this is the way to use my legs into impact I will just have to find my own way or learn the hard way I am wrong 🙂 thanks again!

How about posting a swing video in the member swing section to show us how you're using your legs into and through impact, please.

[billchao]

Years ago, talk of snapping the lead leg at impact for more power was all the rage. Today it's discussed with GRFs and jumping, but it's basically the same thing. None of these suggest a passive lead leg.

[PerfectStriking]

10 hours ago, Zippo said:

How about posting a swing video in the member swing section to show us how you're using your legs into and through impact, please.

Imagine trying to hit a golf ball standing on ice and see if you can visualise making a good shot, that's the problem with passive use of the legs and simply straightening your left leg, I think a lot of my bad shots come from my legs behaving weakly and not grabbing the ground and firming up the muscles (not joints) through impact. I'll think about posting my swing but it really is more about concentrating on separating my use of my legs from the rest of my swing and the upper body, in fact I may just post the use of my legs without swinging.

10 hours ago, billchao said:

Years ago, talk of snapping the lead leg at impact for more power was all the rage. Today it's discussed with GRFs and jumping, but it's basically the same thing. None of these suggest a passive lead leg.

What about the more powerful trailing leg side? And how should both legs including the abs and glutes work together what is their shared purpose into and at impact?

Edited July 13, 2019 by PerfectStriking

[Buckeyebowman]

12 hours ago, iacas said:

Your trail leg doesn’t do much during the downswing.

And the lead leg doesn’t really do any rotation. That’s the hip/core. The leg pretty much does what the knee does - flex and extend.

I keep hearing this, yet I continue to see things that make me think the contrary. Playing today, I saw my buddy's right foot shoot out from under him two times! He wears Foot Joy shoes that don't even have soft spikes, just some stupid little nubs that don't look like they'd grip the ground all that well! 

Back in the day, I saw my Uncle, the country club pro, blow his right foot out from under him while wearing nails! Admittedly, he was standing on soggy wet leaves, but still!

And just a couple of years ago I saw a Tour pro have his right foot blow out from under him to the point where he was injured, and limped all the way to he finish of the third round! 

Seems like some folks are still pushing off the right foot! There's NOT just one golf swing!

 

[iacas]

1 hour ago, PerfectStriking said:

Imagine trying to hit a golf ball standing on ice and see if you can visualise making a good shot, that's the problem with passive use of the legs and simply straightening your left leg

Huh?

Some facts:

• The trail leg doesn't do much. The foot provides a little traction so that your hips can rotate, but the leg itself is pretty passive.
• The ice stuff is pretty irrelevant to extending the lead leg.
• Nobody's said here the lead leg is passive. It extends - often with quite a bit of speed/force - in the downswing.

1 hour ago, PerfectStriking said:

I think a lot of my bad shots come from my legs behaving weakly and not grabbing the ground and firming up the muscles (not joints) through impact.

The legs don't "grab the ground." They simply use the feet (your shoes) for traction against the ground, and to push off the ground both horizontally (shear forces) and vertically (lead leg GRF stuff).

1 hour ago, PerfectStriking said:

I'll think about posting my swing but it really is more about concentrating on separating my use of my legs from the rest of my swing and the upper body, in fact I may just post the use of my legs without swinging.

Post your swing. Without seeing it, it's all just guessing, and feel ain't real.

1 hour ago, PerfectStriking said:

What about the more powerful trailing leg side? And how should both legs including the abs and glutes work together what is their shared purpose into and at impact?

The trail leg doesn't do much of anything.

Beyond that, dude, I don't think you understand what your last sentence asks. Someone could quite literally write a Ph.D. paper on that in biomechanics or something.

28 minutes ago, Buckeyebowman said:

I keep hearing this, yet I continue to see things that make me think the contrary. Playing today, I saw my buddy's right foot shoot out from under him two times!

If his right foot was pushing off, it wouldn't slip out. It slips out because it gets mostly unweighted, and the hips apply a shear force backward to the trail foot.

28 minutes ago, Buckeyebowman said:

And just a couple of years ago I saw a Tour pro have his right foot blow out from under him to the point where he was injured, and limped all the way to he finish of the third round! 

Seems like some folks are still pushing off the right foot! There's NOT just one golf swing!

If they were pushing off the right foot it wouldn't slip out like that. You've got it almost exactly backward.

[bwdial]

57 minutes ago, Buckeyebowman said:

I keep hearing this, yet I continue to see things that make me think the contrary. Playing today, I saw my buddy's right foot shoot out from under him two times! He wears Foot Joy shoes that don't even have soft spikes, just some stupid little nubs that don't look like they'd grip the ground all that well! 

Back in the day, I saw my Uncle, the country club pro, blow his right foot out from under him while wearing nails! Admittedly, he was standing on soggy wet leaves, but still!

And just a couple of years ago I saw a Tour pro have his right foot blow out from under him to the point where he was injured, and limped all the way to he finish of the third round! 

Seems like some folks are still pushing off the right foot! There's NOT just one golf swing!

 

When I hit my one and only hole-in-one, my right leg spun out from under me.

[PerfectStriking]

I might just let Jack Nicklaus and Jim Flick have my last words on this to show I'm not trying to make up something that just "worked" for me once, I'm actually trying to learn what the greatest player and one of the greatest coaches meant when they said...

"Every other sport is played from the ground up ...This used to be true with golf, but today I see it being taught with the upper body dominating, partly because modern equipment is so much lighter." Jack Nicklaus

"Under pressure, can you make the transition from the top as consistently when the upper body controls the swing as when the feet and legs control it? ... The greatest ball-strikers--from Bobby Jones, Sam Snead and Ben Hogan, to Jack, Tiger and now Rory McIlroy--have all initiated the swing from the ground up. To control the clubface and put the ball in the target area, their feet and lower bodies have always started the transition to support the free swinging of the hands and arms." Jim Flick

Jim Flick And Jack Nicklaus: How To Start Down - Golf Digest

---

Swing from the ground up for a powerful transition.

 

[iacas]

6 hours ago, PerfectStriking said:

I might just let Jack Nicklaus and Jim Flick have my last words on this to show I'm not trying to make up something that just "worked" for me once, I'm actually trying to learn what the greatest player and one of the greatest coaches meant when they said...

What's your point?

Feel ain't real. We know the trail leg doesn't do much during the downswing, and again we've never said the lead leg is "passive."

[PerfectStriking]

2 hours ago, iacas said:

What's your point?

Feel ain't real. We know the trail leg doesn't do much during the downswing, and again we've never said the lead leg is "passive."

Hi Erik, "their 'feet' and lower bodies have always started the transition", here "feet" is used in the meaning of the plural of the word foot, I can't be any clearer than quoting that from Flick, Erik. From this I am certain Flick and Nicklaus are saying they don't think the transition starts back with a turn with their hips and a passive right foot.

Try this for yourself pull yourself around from the back of your swing with just your feet and calves and inner thigh muscles and maybe glutes by just pulling your legs left and open from pulling against the ground (right hander) (note Jack says his knee goes left at the start of his downswing) and don't turn your hips or torso at all. You will find if you try this that you can generate a lot of pull from the ground at the start of the transition and your upper body rotates (you might think magically) without engaging anything above your butt and without turning your hips and torso and chest at all, not saying you shouldn't just that the legs can be far more active from the feet to start the pulling transition of your upper body rather than a flat week hip turn.  If you find it possible to generate some turn like this then this is not magic it's real and that force exists and you have just not understood that it existed as a possibility with all due respect.

I also believe that terminating the lower body with active leg muscles for the arms to swing through is better than terminating with a single leg joint lock and leads to far more stability and therefore control and perhaps stops power leak as terminating the lower body strongly is what a straight left leg is meant to be all about right, otherwise what's the point at all? Cheers Erik