Choosing Ball Flight Pattern

[saevel25]

6 minutes ago, PatCav said:

Maybe I’m old fashioned but I usually just try to hit it straight. I don’t worry too much about shaping it into a pin location etc.

That isn't what people are talking about when they say choosing a ball flight patter. Most golfers (including pros) play one ball flight type, fade or draw. 

To quote Ben Hogan, 

"You only hit a straight ball by accident. The ball is going to move right or left every time you hit it, so you had better make it go one way or the other."

I believe it's just easier to have clubface control when you know if you tend to draw or fade the ball. There are just some golf holes were you do not want the ball to be moving in a certain direction. Maybe a fader of the ball can be more aggressive, and the drawer of the ball needs to be really conservative. With a straight ball, it would be impossible to gauge where to aim because if you happen to draw it you could be screwed. 

[PatCav]

2 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

That isn't what people are talking about when they say choosing a ball flight patter. Most golfers (including pros) play one ball flight type, fade or draw. 

To quote Ben Hogan, 

"You only hit a straight ball by accident. The ball is going to move right or left every time you hit it, so you had better make it go one way or the other."

I believe it's just easier to have clubface control when you know if you tend to draw or fade the ball. There are just some golf holes were you do not want the ball to be moving in a certain direction. Maybe a fader of the ball can be more aggressive, and the drawer of the ball needs to be really conservative. With a straight ball, it would be impossible to gauge where to aim because if you happen to draw it you could be screwed. 

That’s why I said “try to hit it straight” and that for “me” it helps my miss.  I have a rather straight ball flight and I use it. It works well for me. I fail to see why my using the shape I have is different than someone using the fade or draw shape that is natural to them. Good discussion points though. The way I play may not be glamorous but it works for me and I enjoy it. 

[iacas]

1 minute ago, PatCav said:

That’s why I said “try to hit it straight” and that for “me” it helps my miss.  I have a rather straight ball flight and I use it. It works well for me. I fail to see why my using the shape I have is different than someone using the fade or draw shape that is natural to them. Good discussion points though. The way I play may not be glamorous but it works for me and I enjoy it. 

Because "straight" isn't a shape. The best players don't generally hit the ball "straight" — they play their curve (admittedly it's not much curve), but that way their ball is always working toward the target. If you play a "straight" ball your ball will tend to be working away from the target all the time, except the times you accidentally hit one straight.

You do you, man… I'm just saying what the thinking is on why most shouldn't play a "straight" ball.

[Lefty_3Jack]

I think some are misunderstanding what I'm asking.  I understand you'd like to hit it "straight" and you do things with setup to produce a certain shot when you think you need to (although studies show you don't need to, go check out Decade and it'll open your eyes).  I'm not asking you what you do to hit a fade on a hole or a draw on another.  I'm asking what do you hit primarily and is that what came natural to you when you first started playing or did you do things to completely revert your natural tendencies.

Take Zack Johnson for example.  If today was the first day he ever swung a club and he jumped out of bed, went to the range and swung the club like he does, he'd start out playing golf hitting push draws.  In that regard his "natural" tendency from the get go was hitting a push draw.   

The question is to see if someone has changed their ball flight over time, permanently, to the shot shape that is 180° from what their natural tendency was when they started playing.  The reason for the question is to determine if it's an exercise in futility to try and hit a pull fade if "naturally" dump it under and swing out or vice versa.  

 

[billchao]

1 hour ago, Lefty_3Jack said:

Take Zack Johnson for example.  If today was the first day he ever swung a club and he jumped out of bed, went to the range and swung the club like he does, he'd start out playing golf hitting push draws.  In that regard his "natural" tendency from the get go was hitting a push draw.

I get what you’re trying to say, but nobody rolls out on the golf course for the first time and swings like Zach Johnson. I’d bet Zach Johnson didn’t swing like that when he first started playing golf. His swing produces a push draw, but it’s not due to a innate natural tendency to produce that pattern, it’s something that was developed over time.

1 hour ago, Lefty_3Jack said:

The question is to see if someone has changed their ball flight over time, permanently, to the shot shape that is 180° from what their natural tendency was when they started playing.

When I started playing golf I hit a fade. Now I hit a draw. I didn’t go into improving my swing by saying, “I want to learn to hit a draw.” I worked on improving flawed mechanics and those changes produced a different shot shape. I play the shape my mechanics produce because to force my ballflight the other direction would be fighting my own swing.

[gbogey]

3 hours ago, PatCav said:

Maybe I’m old fashioned but I usually just try to hit it straight. I don’t worry too much about shaping it into a pin location etc. I can 2 putt from anywhere on the green for the most part. If I attempt straight, the miss is less for me. My strategy is to get to the green in regulation. The rest doesn’t matter to me. 

I get this.  My natural ball is a pretty straight ball.  No it doesn't go straight, but it has been generally straight and I was just as likely to miss left as right.  

3 hours ago, saevel25 said:

That isn't what people are talking about when they say choosing a ball flight patter. Most golfers (including pros) play one ball flight type, fade or draw. 

To quote Ben Hogan, 

"You only hit a straight ball by accident. The ball is going to move right or left every time you hit it, so you had better make it go one way or the other."

I believe it's just easier to have clubface control when you know if you tend to draw or fade the ball. There are just some golf holes were you do not want the ball to be moving in a certain direction. Maybe a fader of the ball can be more aggressive, and the drawer of the ball needs to be really conservative. With a straight ball, it would be impossible to gauge where to aim because if you happen to draw it you could be screwed. 

Again I'm with PatCav - I hit the ball best when I try to hit it straight.  I generally have bad results if I try to hit a fade or draw on an approach shot.  I have over time, developed a little more tendency to go left than right, but I'm playing the ball straight and aiming such that a big miss left doesn't hurt me.

[saevel25]

11 minutes ago, gbogey said:

Again I'm with PatCav - I hit the ball best when I try to hit it straight.  I generally have bad results if I try to hit a fade or draw on an approach shot.  I have over time, developed a little more tendency to go left than right, but I'm playing the ball straight and aiming such that a big miss left doesn't hurt me.

I don't think you a getting it here. 

It's not like I am trying to really sling the ball from right to left. A short iron will draw a few yards (which looks straight). A long iron might draw a bit more. I know  that the ball will not go from left to right. 

Two of the greatest golfers of all time played primarily one shot shape. Just saying, don't try to force a straight ball. 

Also, I want to kinda dig into your shot dispersion. Lets say you aim straight at the middle of the green. 50% of the balls end up left of target and 50% end up right of target. Now, did that mean the 50% on the right curved from left to right and 50% curved right to left for you? That is not desirable. 

For me, I play a draw. I have a shot dispersion. The balls that end up right of target are slight pushes right. Pretty straight in terms of ball flight. The balls that end up left of target might be slightly pull draws or maybe one slightly over curved. My entire shot dispersion area is created by a ball flight that goes from right to left. I will have 50% of the shots end up right of target and 50% left of target. That doesn't mean I hit a straight ball. 

I would like those who think they hit it straight to really plot out their shots shape. Hit 20 golf balls, aim straight at a target and really write down if the ball is straight or does it shape one way or another. Maybe you really don't hit it straight. 

[PatCav]

3 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

I don't think you a getting it here. 

It's not like I am trying to really sling the ball from right to left. A short iron will draw a few yards (which looks straight). A long iron might draw a bit more. I know  that the ball will not go from left to right. 

Two of the greatest golfers of all time played primarily one shot shape. Just saying, don't try to force a straight ball. 

Also, I want to kinda dig into your shot dispersion. Lets say you aim straight at the middle of the green. 50% of the balls end up left of target and 50% end up right of target. Now, did that mean the 50% on the right curved from left to right and 50% curved right to left for you? That is not desirable. 

For me, I play a draw. I have a shot dispersion. The balls that end up right of target are slight pushes right. Pretty straight in terms of ball flight. The balls that end up left of target might be slightly pull draws or maybe one slightly over curved. My entire shot dispersion area is created by a ball flight that goes from right to left. I will have 50% of the shots end up right of target and 50% left of target. That doesn't mean I hit a straight ball. 

I would like those who think they hit it straight to really plot out their shots shape. Hit 20 golf balls, aim straight at a target and really write down if the ball is straight or does it shape one way or another. Maybe you really don't hit it straight. 

Suggestion,

I will continue to play golf the way I enjoy playing it, with the shot shape (or lack thereof) that I have grown to enjoy and rely on. I don’t intend to be one of the greatest golfers of all time nor do I much care about how Mr. Johnson plays the game. I play against the course and I don’t harbor any opinion of how others choose to play against the common opponent each day.  
 

Cheers 🥃

[saevel25]

5 minutes ago, PatCav said:

I will continue to play golf the way I enjoy playing it, with the shot shape (or lack thereof) that I have grown to enjoy and rely on. I don’t intend to be one of the greatest golfers of all time nor do I much care about how Mr. Johnson plays the game. I play against the course and I don’t harbor any opinion of how others choose to play against the common opponent each day.  

That's fair. But, I would not want to play golf in a way that could possible cost me strokes. Not saying it does for you, but self exploration of this could be to your benefit. Like you said, that is what you like to play. 

Also, the intent is not to force you to do anything. Still, when someone comes in championing a straight ball flight there is going to be some opposite opinions to this because of the fact that mostly every good golf shapes the ball consistently one way or the other. 

To keep it simple, the only way to hit a straight ball is to have your club face square to the swing path. So, zero degrees. Any deviation from this perpendicular position will cause the ball to curve. Let's say a golfer has a club face control of +/- 2 degrees (or 4 degrees in total). If the swing path is zero degrees, the ball would spray left and right. If you swing in to out at 4 degrees, then you will always hit a draw. I think this has more benefit to a golfer versus someone with a zero'd out swing path who doesn't know if the ball will drift left or right. Knowing that a ball will always curve away from a bunker or water hazard is nice to know. 

Just my opinion on this. 

 

[Tepi90]

12 hours ago, saevel25 said:

That's fair. But, I would not want to play golf in a way that could possible cost me strokes. Not saying it does for you, but self exploration of this could be to your benefit. Like you said, that is what you like to play. 

Also, the intent is not to force you to do anything. Still, when someone comes in championing a straight ball flight there is going to be some opposite opinions to this because of the fact that mostly every good golf shapes the ball consistently one way or the other. 

To keep it simple, the only way to hit a straight ball is to have your club face square to the swing path. So, zero degrees. Any deviation from this perpendicular position will cause the ball to curve. Let's say a golfer has a club face control of +/- 2 degrees (or 4 degrees in total). If the swing path is zero degrees, the ball would spray left and right. If you swing in to out at 4 degrees, then you will always hit a draw. I think this has more benefit to a golfer versus someone with a zero'd out swing path who doesn't know if the ball will drift left or right. Knowing that a ball will always curve away from a bunker or water hazard is nice to know. 

Just my opinion on this. 

 

Great post, I believe it can also be very inefficient trying to chase movement patterns that produce straight ball flight. Believe it easily leads to manipulation of club path making you fight the forces of releasing this extremely heavy instrument we are using. Something I'm surely quilty of and I believe part of the reason is I started to play on a course that had water on both sides of every fairway so I wanted to hit it "straight".