Jump to content
Check out the Spin Axis Podcast! ×
IGNORED

Which is Low Net in this Circumstance?


Note: This thread is 2065 days old. We appreciate that you found this thread instead of starting a new one, but if you plan to post here please make sure it's still relevant. If not, please start a new topic. Thank you!

Recommended Posts

Posted (edited)

We have four tee boxes-

  1. Black (tips)
  2. Gold
  3. Silver
  4. Copper

There are two combo tees-

5. Players. consists of Gold and Silver tees
6. Senior Players consist of Silver and Copper tees

In my mens group, some play the Senior Player combo and some play the Coppers. A foursome team might have one golfer playing the Senior Players and three golfers playing the Coopers.

Now this is where it gets complicated (for me). The 10th hole is a par 5 from Silver (course par is 71) or par 4 from Copper (course par is 70).

Let's say a golfer on Team Silver gets a par (5 strokes) and gets one hcp stroke. So his low net is 4. Now let's say a golfer on Team Copper gets a par (4 strokes) and gets one hcp stroke. So his low net is 3.

My question is - Who gets awarded low net on Hole 10 (at the pay-out at the end of the round)? Both parred but one has a 4 and the other has a 3.

Edited by iacas
cleaned up HTML

Posted
16 minutes ago, dumbbunny said:

We have four tee boxes-

  1. Black (tips)

  2. Gold

  3. Silver

  4. Copper.

There are two combo tees-

 5. Players. consists of Gold and Silver tees

6. Senior Players consist of Silver and Copper tees

In my mens group, some play the Senior Player combo and some play the Coppers. A foursome team might have one golfer playing the Senior Players and three golfers playing the Coopers.

Now this is where it gets complicated (for me). The 10th hole is a par 5 from Silver (course par is 71) or par 4 from Copper (course par is 70).

Let's say a golfer on Team Silver gets a par (5 strokes) and gets one hcp stroke. So his low net is 4. Now let's say a golfer on Team Copper gets a par (4 strokes) and gets one hcp stroke. So his low net is 3.

My question is - Who gets awarded low net on Hole 10 (at the pay-out at the end of the round)? Both parred but one has a 4 and the other has a 3.

What is the hole handicap for the respective tees?

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Posted
5 hours ago, ncates00 said:

What is the hole handicap for the respective tees?

Sorry for the delayed reply, I just finished a round with the men's group.

The hole handicap is the same for all tees (for men) - 16. 


Posted

Sounds like a tie to me as they are both net birdie from their respective tees

  • Like 2
  • Upvote 1
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Posted
4 hours ago, SteveH said:

Sounds like a tie to me as they are both net birdie from their respective tees

^^^ This ^^^

In David's bag....

Driver: Titleist 910 D-3;  9.5* Diamana Kai'li
3-Wood: Titleist 910F;  15* Diamana Kai'li
Hybrids: Titleist 910H 19* and 21* Diamana Kai'li
Irons: Titleist 695cb 5-Pw

Wedges: Scratch 51-11 TNC grind, Vokey SM-5's;  56-14 F grind and 60-11 K grind
Putter: Scotty Cameron Kombi S
Ball: ProV1

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Posted
9 hours ago, dumbbunny said:

Let's say a golfer on Team Silver gets a par (5 strokes) and gets one hcp stroke. So his low net is 4. Now let's say a golfer on Team Copper gets a par (4 strokes) and gets one hcp stroke. So his low net is 3.

When I read this I knew I had read it somewhere else earlier today :-D

But I'm not really sure what the correct answer is. I would guess that it's a tie since their score relative to par is the same, but if those tee boxes are relatively close together and I was playing from the Copper tees, I'd be upset that it was a tie because regardless of par, a 4 net 3 on a 450 yd hole is more impressive than a 5 net 4 on a 470 yard hole. But then the obvious response to that is everyone should just play the same tees and over time the handicaps would adjust to make it fair. 

But I am curious, what are the yardages from the silver and copper tees on that hole? I'd imagine it would have to be a fairly substantial difference since it remains the 16 hcp hole for all tee boxes.

 

Driver: :titleist:  GT3
Woods:  :cobra: Darkspeed LS 3Wood
Irons: :titleist: U505 (3)  :tmade: P770 (4-PW)
Wedges: :callaway: MD3 50   :titleist: SM9 54/58  
Putter: :tmade: Spider X

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Posted
9 hours ago, dumbbunny said:

Both parred but one has a 4 and the other has a 3.

Net 3 beats a Net 4
Regardless of the Hole Par being different for course setup.
Example: Men versus Women, hole handicaps are always different.
A par 4 on a hole may be #10 Hdcp for Men while it's the #1 Hdcp hole for Women
They both score Gross 4, but the Woman would have a Net 3

Different Pars for a same hole are not that uncommon.
Since the hole you mention plays as a par 4 from certain tees and a par 5 at the other tees.

10 hours ago, dumbbunny said:

The 10th hole is a par 5 from Silver (course par is 71) or par 4 from Copper (course par is 70).

 par 5 (Silver) - Par 4 (Copper)
 

10 hours ago, dumbbunny said:

Let's say a golfer on Team Silver gets a par (5 strokes) and gets one hcp stroke. So his low net is 4. Now let's say a golfer on Team Copper gets a par (4 strokes) and gets one hcp stroke. So his low net is 3.

 

Johnny Rocket - Let's Rock and Roll and play some golf !!!

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Posted
59 minutes ago, klineka said:

When I read this I knew I had read it somewhere else earlier today :-D

But I'm not really sure what the correct answer is. I would guess that it's a tie since their score relative to par is the same, but if those tee boxes are relatively close together and I was playing from the Copper tees, I'd be upset that it was a tie because regardless of par, a 4 net 3 on a 450 yd hole is more impressive than a 5 net 4 on a 470 yard hole. But then the obvious response to that is everyone should just play the same tees and over time the handicaps would adjust to make it fair. 

But I am curious, what are the yardages from the silver and copper tees on that hole? I'd imagine it would have to be a fairly substantial difference since it remains the 16 hcp hole for all tee boxes.

 

Silver tee is 449. Copper tee is 415.


  • Administrator
Posted
1 minute ago, dumbbunny said:

Silver tee is 449. Copper tee is 415.

They should probably both be par fours.

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instruction Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins
Golf Digest "Best Young Teachers in America" 2016-17 & "Best in State" 2017-20 • WNY Section PGA Teacher of the Year 2019 :edel: :true_linkswear:

Check Out: New Topics | TST Blog | Golf Terms | Instructional Content | Analyzr | LSW | Instructional Droplets

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Posted

The Oregon Golf Association came to our course (Salishan) with all their measuring devices and algorithms for the changeover to the World Handicap System. They said the yardage for the Copper tee on 10 (415 yds) was to short to be a par five. So they changed it. Here is the results of their measurements and hole-by-hole scoring in GHIN-

 


Posted

Hmmm...my initial thought is that whoever had the net 3 wins the hole, but because both scenarios result in net birdies because of different pars, it’s hard to say. I’m gonna go with my gut feeling. Net 3 guy wins.

WITB:
Woods: Cleveland Launcher (Driver, 17 degree, 22 degree)
Irons: Titleist T200 (4-PW)
Wedges: Callaway Jaws (50/54/60)
Putter: Odyssey White Hot

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Posted

According to the USGA Match Play rules, the lower net score wins the hole in a match.  There is no reference to "par".

It appears your group is playing "net skins" and I do not believe there are any USGA Rules for skins games. If your group wants to award net skins based on the score's relation to par, then in your example it is a tie.  If you go with the Match Play model, then the lowest net score wins and the person who made net 3 wins.

If the process was not decided ahead of time, then I would use the King Solomon approach.  Award a single net skin to the two individuals and let them split it.  If everyone is unhappy about that approach, then it is likely the correct thing to do. 😉

Brian Kuehn

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Posted
51 minutes ago, bkuehn1952 said:

According to the USGA Match Play rules, the lower net score wins the hole in a match.  There is no reference to "par".

It appears your group is playing "net skins" and I do not believe there are any USGA Rules for skins games. If your group wants to award net skins based on the score's relation to par, then in your example it is a tie.  If you go with the Match Play model, then the lowest net score wins and the person who made net 3 wins.

If the process was not decided ahead of time, then I would use the King Solomon approach.  Award a single net skin to the two individuals and let them split it.  If everyone is unhappy about that approach, then it is likely the correct thing to do. 😉

Considering all the responses in the two forums I posted this question to, your response is the most helpful. Thanks to all who took the time to help me.

See you on the tee box.


Posted
1 hour ago, dumbbunny said:

Thanks to all who took the time to help me.

To settle matters for your participants going forward, a decision should be made to clarify your game with this particular hole.
Make a ruling that the hole will will played in the game as a Par 4 or Par 5 by all players regardless what the score card indicates.
Either as the Manager of the game, or ask your pro or take a vote by the players for this rule for your game.
Keep in mind, the final score will still be entered by all players to their Ghin as per usual.
 

Johnny Rocket - Let's Rock and Roll and play some golf !!!

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

  • Administrator
Posted
16 hours ago, dumbbunny said:

The Oregon Golf Association came to our course (Salishan) with all their measuring devices and algorithms for the changeover to the World Handicap System. They said the yardage for the Copper tee on 10 (415 yds) was to short to be a par five. So they changed it. Here is the results of their measurements and hole-by-hole scoring in GHIN-

 

I'm saying that BOTH tees are too short to be a par five. They should both be par fours.

I'm a course rating captain. You'd have to have some pretty unique situations to have a 445-yard par five.

As for "hole difficulty" that is not how stroke indexes are determined, really. Read up here:

 

I see nothing about hole 10 that should make it a par five. The hole actually goes from 54 feet at the back tees to 13 feet at the green - downhill 41 feet.

https://www.salishan.com/edit/pdf/Golf-Scorecard.pdf

  • Thumbs Up 1

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instruction Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins
Golf Digest "Best Young Teachers in America" 2016-17 & "Best in State" 2017-20 • WNY Section PGA Teacher of the Year 2019 :edel: :true_linkswear:

Check Out: New Topics | TST Blog | Golf Terms | Instructional Content | Analyzr | LSW | Instructional Droplets

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Note: This thread is 2065 days old. We appreciate that you found this thread instead of starting a new one, but if you plan to post here please make sure it's still relevant. If not, please start a new topic. Thank you!

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now


  • Want to join this community?

    We'd love to have you!

    Sign Up
  • TST Partners

    PlayBetter
    Golfer's Journal
    ShotScope
    The Stack System
    FitForGolf
    FlightScope Mevo
    Direct: Mevo, Mevo+, and Pro Package.

    Coupon Codes (save 10-20%): "IACAS" for Mevo/Stack/FitForGolf, "IACASPLUS" for Mevo+/Pro Package, and "THESANDTRAP" for ShotScope. 15% off TourStriker (no code).
  • Posts

    • Please see this topic for updated information:
    • Please see this topic for updated information:
    • When you've been teaching golf as long as I have, you're going to find that you can teach some things better than you previously had, and you're probably going to find some things that you taught incorrectly. I don't see that as a bad thing — what would be worse is refusing to adapt and grow given new information. I've always said that my goal with my instruction isn't to be right, but it's to get things right. To that end, I'm about five years late in issuing a public proclamation on something… When I first got my GEARS system, I immediately looked at the golf swings of the dozens and dozens of Tour players for which I suddenly had full 3D data. I created a huge spreadsheet showing how their bodies moved, how the club moved, at various points in the swing. I mapped knee and elbow angles, hand speeds, shoulder turns and pelvis turns… etc. I re-considered what I thought I knew about the golf swing as performed by the best players. One of those things dated back to the earliest days: that you extend (I never taught "straighten" and would avoid using that word unless in the context of saying "don't fully straighten") the trail knee/leg in the backswing. I was mislead by 2D photos from less-than-ideal camera angles — the trail leg rotates a bit during the backswing, and so when observing trail knee flex should also use a camera that moves to stay perpendicular to the plane of the ankle/knee/hip joint. We have at least two topics here on this (here and here; both of which I'll be updating after publishing this) where @mvmac and I advise golfers to extend the trail knee. Learning that this was not right is one of the reasons I'm glad to have a 3D system, as most golfers generally preserve the trail knee flex throughout the backswing. Data Here's a video showing an iron and a driver of someone who has won the career slam: Here's what the graph of his right knee flex looks like. The solid lines I've positioned at the top of the backswing (GEARS aligns both swings at impact, the dashed line). Address is to the right, of course, and the graph shows knee flex from the two swings above. The data (17.56° and 23.20°) shows where this player is in both swings (orange being the yellow iron swing, pink the blue driver swing). You can see that this golfer extends his trail knee 2-3°… before bending it even more than that through the late backswing and early downswing. Months ago I created a quick Instagram video showing the trail knee flex in the backswing of several players (see the top for the larger number): Erik J. Barzeski (@iacas) • Instagram reel GEARS shares expert advice on golf swing technique, focusing on the critical backswing phase. Tour winners and major champions reveal the key to a precise and powerful swing, highlighting the importance of... Here are a few more graphs. Two LIV players and major champions: Two PGA Tour winners: Two women's #1 ranked players: Two more PGA Tour winners (one a major champ): Two former #1s, the left one being a woman, the right a man, with a driver: Two more PGA Tour players: You'll notice a trend: they almost all maintain roughly the same flex throughout their backswing and downswing. The Issues with Extending the Trail Knee You can play good golf extending (again, not "straightening") the trail knee. Some Tour players do. But, as with many things, if 95 out of 100 Tour players do it, you're most likely better off doing similarly to what they do. So, what are the issues with extending the trail knee in the backswing? To list a few: Pelvic Depth and Rotation Quality Suffers When the trail knee extends, the trail leg often acts like an axle on the backswing, with the pelvis rotating around the leg and the trail hip joint. This prevents the trail side from gaining depth, as is needed to keep the pelvis center from thrusting toward the ball. Most of the "early extension" (thrust) that I see occurs during the backswing. Encourages Early Extension (Thrust) Patterns When you've thrust and turned around the trail hip joint in the backswing, you often thrust a bit more in the downswing as the direction your pelvis is oriented is forward and "out" (to the right for a righty). Your trail leg can abduct to push you forward, but "forward" when your pelvis is turned like that is in the "thrust" direction. Additionally, the trail knee "breaking" again at the start of the downswing often jumps the trail hip out toward the ball a bit too much or too quickly. While the trail hip does move in that direction, if it's too fast or too much, it can prevent the lead side hip from getting "back" at the right rate, or at a rate commensurate with the trail hip to keep the pelvis center from thrusting. Disrupts the Pressure Shift/Transition When the trail leg extends too much, it often can't "push" forward normally. The forward push begins much earlier than forward motion begins — pushing forward begins as early as about P1.5 to P2 in the swings of most good golfers. It can push forward by abducting, again, but that's a weaker movement that shoves the pelvis forward (toward the target) and turns it more than it generally should (see the next point). Limits Internal Rotation of the Trail Hip Internal rotation of the trail hip is a sort of "limiter" on the backswing. I have seen many golfers on GEARS whose trail knee extends, whose pelvis shifts forward (toward the target), and who turn over 50°, 60°, and rarely but not never, over 70° in the backswing. If you turn 60° in the backswing, it's going to be almost impossible to get "open enough" in the downswing to arrive at a good impact position. Swaying/Lateral Motion Occasionally a golfer who extends the trail knee too much will shift back too far, but more often the issue is that the golfer will shift forward too early in the backswing (sometimes even immediately to begin the backswing), leaving them "stuck forward" to begin the downswing. They'll push forward, stop, and have to restart around P4, disrupting the smooth sequence often seen in the game's best players. Other Bits… Reduces ground reaction force potential, compromises spine inclination and posture, makes transition sequencing harder, increases stress on the trail knee and lower back… In short… It's not athletic. We don't do many athletic things with "straight" or very extended legs (unless it's the end of the action, like a jump or a big push off like a step in a running motion).
    • Day 135 12-25 Wide backswing to wide downswing drill. Recorder and used mirror. 
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

Welcome to TST! Signing up is free, and you'll see fewer ads and can talk with fellow golf enthusiasts! By using TST, you agree to our Terms of Use, our Privacy Policy, and our Guidelines.