For Discussion - Brandel on Instruction, Technology, Etc.

[iacas]

For discussion:

 

What do you think?

[Vinsk]

31 minutes ago, iacas said:

For discussion:

 

What do you think?

This was filmed at my practice facility...I’ll get to my input..just wanted to mention that!

[nevets88]

Only 2 minutes in but a steady head is bad?

[TourSpoon]

I watched it. It's a fair discussion. I remember the philosophy of a restricted hip turn that I am still battling to this day. The period that they talked about was when I was learning and much of it was based on what tour players felt (not necessarily did). Some concepts have stood the test of time, but others have been debunked and rethought. When they started talking I remembered listening to Wolff's coach the other day and then they told his story. The HOF has a lot of swings with character but they did one thing well, consistently over time, in the impact zone. I think the one thing they left out was the pursuit of swing versus the pursuit of playing golf. Playing golf well is the ultimate decider in my opinion and many instructors are hung up in changing too many things at once and want it to look pretty. I do agree with Brandel that a great instructor will see one or two immediate things that will cure a lot of woes and work a plan around those ideas. 

More on point was the availability of good instruction online, social media, and the phone as a high speed camera. I was just talking to someone about how I took a little video today during my 1/2 swing drill which turned out to be 3/4. It felt 1/2 but clearly it was not so the phone provided instant feedback that we didn't have that long ago. Today it's easier to get the feedback that took experience through trial and error. Now you can get fit, optimize your equipment with a high degree of confidence, and then make those green grass adjustments where needed. 

To finish this up, I was on the range this morning going through some drills and these 2 guys walk up to my left and start whacking balls. I looked up when I heard one of them say, "You know what Hogan says in his book about the shoulder turn...". They were uber beginners lunging, slicing, and chunking, but they were quoting the Five Fundamentals. I cringed a little bit and went back to my business. 

[nevets88]

I think Chamblee seems to taking his worldview, that of tour players, and applying them to everyday players. For example just because Woods doesn't use radar and goes by feel, doesn't mean the rest of us should. Woods is the GOAT. He is like the ultimate outlier.

While there is a lot of scrutiny on social media and more good information out there, imho, I think it's harder to sort out the good from the bad. Like the top instructor lists, which tend to be politicized, popularity contests, working at a well known private, the videos can be over produced and superficial rather than rely on quality of content and that can throw people off, especially if you're coming into the world with zero knowledge, total newb.

 

[iacas]

2 hours ago, nevets88 said:

Only 2 minutes in but a steady head is bad?

He means "still." He knows Jack Nicklaus had Jack Grout grabbing fistfuls of his hair.

Unfortunately there's no good word that means what "steady" implies: not "still" or "unmoving" (which is how "steady" is defined, as a synonym). You know what we mean by "steady" but the actual dictionary definition is not exactly what we mean. We mean "not moving around much."

1 hour ago, nevets88 said:

I think Chamblee seems to taking his worldview, that of tour players, and applying them to everyday players. For example just because Woods doesn't use radar and goes by feel, doesn't mean the rest of us should. Woods is the GOAT. He is like the ultimate outlier.

That's a really good point. He also doesn't seem to account for the fact that everyone's different. Even in that video of "Tigerisms" Jason Day or Rory or whomever said they feel things differently, etc. Some are more technically oriented. I'm not sure Charles Howell III would be on Tour if you didn't let him have his tech/geek/knowledge side and he just had to "play." Maybe he'd be better, maybe he'd be off the Tour.

And even Tiger is very technical at times.

1 hour ago, nevets88 said:

While there is a lot of scrutiny on social media and more good information out there, imho, I think it's harder to sort out the good from the bad. Like the top instructor lists, which tend to be politicized, popularity contests, working at a well known private, the videos can be over produced and superficial rather than rely on quality of content and that can throw people off, especially if you're coming into the world with zero knowledge, total newb.

Yep.

All around good post Steven.

[JGus]

I'll try to get through it, but usually can't handle Brandel for more than 30 seconds, something about him annoys the crap out of me.

[TourSpoon]

1 hour ago, nevets88 said:

While there is a lot of scrutiny on social media and more good information out there, imho, I think it's harder to sort out the good from the bad. Like the top instructor lists, which tend to be politicized, popularity contests, working at a well known private, the videos can be over produced and superficial rather than rely on quality of content and that can throw people off, especially if you're coming into the world with zero knowledge, total newb.

If you take into account the period of which he was referring to, there is information now for the taking. The time period that Brandel learned in was the age of did you see that in Golf Digest or did you read so and so's book. I think overall today I can google a topic and have a lot to choose from. If I want to see vintage Miller hit a 7 iron or Norman hit a driver I have it within seconds and don't have to wait until its featured in a magazine. 

Top instructor lists have been that way since they were invented. I agree that some videos are superficial, but I don't think anyone said to replace an instructor or "coach" with youtube. The point being made is that there is less "mystique" out there and if you do your homework you can vet a proper instructor rather than having to experience someone you heard about.  Honestly its so much easier today especially if you are on the Sandtrap Forums and start a swing thread. 

[nevets88]

46 minutes ago, TourSpoon said:

Top instructor lists have been that way since they were invented. I agree that some videos are superficial, but I don't think anyone said to replace an instructor or "coach" with youtube. The point being made is that there is less "mystique" out there and if you do your homework you can vet a proper instructor rather than having to experience someone you heard about.  Honestly its so much easier today especially if you are on the Sandtrap Forums and start a swing thread. 

That's a good point. Compared to pre-internet days, if you really wanted to get good and find good information it was really hard. While now if you go in cold is a newbie, you'll be confused, but once you connect with a community that knows its way around and is willing to guide you, you can find a wealth of good info and be in a better position to vet info.

1 hour ago, iacas said:

Some are more technically oriented. I'm not sure Charles Howell III would be on Tour if you didn't let him have his tech/geek/knowledge side and he just had to "play." Maybe he'd be better, maybe he'd be off the Tour.

I never knew Howell was that way - just watched a video on Tyler Ferrell's site which bore this out, Howell's tendencies to tinker with his swing, his workout. I think some people need to understand the why of what they're doing to have the full conviction to carry something out, like a golf swing. Or at the very least, an explanation that makes enough sense, like, buy-in.

[Hardspoon]

I found the first portion interesting, and agree with most of it.

• Como:  “Even the smartest person in the world, and they come up with this theory on what should happen in the golf swing…that’s not smarter than the collective trial-and-error of everybody who’s ever hit a golf ball.”
• I also loved Brandel’s point that social media has been a plus to teaching…because “if you put an idea out there”…it gets critiqued openly.
• And, the third-wheel dude had a good quote about Wolf's coach - "he protected his talent” – a great way to think about teaching someone with a quirky swing.

The second part...starting at 9:04...it all seemed incongruous to me.  Brandel talked about launch monitors and how they can be bad for players…but his point seemed to counteract earlier statements about how the “ball doesn’t know what you feel”.  He claims that because HE can feel what he’s doing, you don’t need them…because you “play with feels”.  Eh.  Disagree.

And Como’s follow-up point about the launch monitor giving you the results of one swing was kind of a straw man.  Nobody is looking at a SINGLE SHOT and using it to teach the golf swing.

Then…they claim “some of the best players in the world played without technology”…referring to launch monitors.  But that could also apply to the technologies they lauded, such as high-speed video or pressure plates.

The back-and-forth at 14:00 illustrated some of this, with Brandel talking about the perfect teacher…huh?  What if a teacher achieves all of the results that he described, while using technology to do it?  Como argued with him, that some people may respond to different things.  Brandel’s comeback was dumb – “The best golf is not played by analytical minds”.  Uh, sure, but people with analytical minds (like me) still want to play their best golf!  And his argument that the best golfers weren’t thinking about certain things still didn’t address the point Como made.  And Tiger isn't a great example if you think he had an analytical mind since he is the best golfer ever.

Anyway, as a novice to instruction, I thought the whole thing was pretty interesting.  Definitely worth watching.

 

[iacas]

1 minute ago, Hardspoon said:

I also loved Brandel’s point that social media has been a plus to teaching…because “if you put an idea out there”…it gets critiqued openly.

Except it doesn’t really. Unfortunately. People aren’t capable of having a real discussion.

[saevel25]

That social media doesn't promote real discussions. Its about getting clicks and likes.