Cheating and Policing on the PGA Tour

[GolfLug]

7 hours ago, iacas said:

Some questions, then:

• Isn't it their obligation to do so, under the Rules of Golf?
• Are Tour players lacking the balls to call out fellow players?
• Should they do this more often?
• Do we care, as fans?
• How widespread is cheating at the PGA Tour level?

What do you think?

1. Abso-freaking-lutely.

2. IMO, easier said than done. How do you prove someone improved their lie after the fact? All the perpetrator has to do is deny it and that would hold unless there are other witnesses. But really, I would like to know if a player called out a competitive partner and their word stood over the denying perpetrator. The player does not have to prove integrity. It's assumed. So yeah, proving otherwise is at best an uphill task. 

I think it unfair to say they don't have balls. Maybe some don't like confrontation but really they don't have the authority a RO has as far as whose final word holds. 

If playing partners' word is taken over a player themselves then a lot more partners would start coming forward and calling out perpetrators. 

3. Yes, but, see above 2. 

4. Yesss.. taking favorable drops and improving lie is robbery!

Can't find the video but will never forget Charl Schwartzel's creative drop from rough to fairway from an almost unhittable sprinkler head. Absolute BS. And that was in broad camera daylight.

Backstopping is like a mafia racket.

5. Not as widespread as number of people driving 5 mph over driving limit, but at least as widespread as businesses taking liberties of claiming 'creative' tax deductions. More than we think.

[Birdieputt]

16 minutes ago, GolfLug said:

 

If playing partners' word is taken over a player themselves then a lot more partners would start coming forward and calling out perpetrators. 

 

Well that certainly would not end well.  Who is to say the cheater is here?  The playing partner getting beat or the player?  I could see the USGA solving a problem that really doesn't exist by creating a bigger problem.  Right up their alley.  

[GolfLug]

1 minute ago, Birdieputt said:

Well that certainly would not end well.  Who is to say the cheater is here?  The playing partner getting beat or the player?  I could see the USGA solving a problem that really doesn't exist by creating a bigger problem.  Right up their alley.  

Sure, but then it's not fair to say they don't have balls either. They are simply not empowered (enough). Right or wrong. 

In my kids' soccer scrimmage the other team is tasked with calling penalties on the other. Honor system. It works. Most of the time..😄

[Beastie]

The PGA Tour has always been very shy of bringing any negative light upon itself. It steered clear of WADA until only a few years ago and was patently not transparent about any positive tests up until 2018(IIRC). It would be completely in keeping for the tour to keep any cheating issues hush hush, unless there’s a sharp eyed fan watching at home to bring things to their attention. 

The European tour had a cheating case in 2011 Elliot Saltman ...here. There was another guy about twenty years before called Robertson I think. Before he got banned he had already picked up the  nickname “the Ballmark Kid”

Vijay Singh was banned from the precursor to the Asian tour in the 80’s for altering his scorecard to make the cut on the bubble, but I don’t know if any current players would remember that. 

It stands to reason that some players are cheating on the Tour(s) but hopefully not many. Growth hormone and steroids would also have a major impact on distance training, but I can’t think of any positives for those of the top of my head. 

[iacas]

2 hours ago, GolfLug said:

Sure, but then it's not fair to say they don't have balls either. They are simply not empowered (enough).

Yes, they are. They choose to look the other way and only even occasionally bring it up to an official after the round.

Joel Dahmen calling out Sung-hoon Kang makes news because it's SO rare. He was empowered to call him out. In that case someone with more dignity and integrity would have heeded his word and dropped back farther, and then Dahmen wouldn't have had to get fined for calling Kang a cheater. 😄

[Beastie]

18 minutes ago, iacas said:

......., and then Dahmen wouldn't have had to get fined for calling Kang a cheater. 😄

Was he actually fined😐? what for?? 

[iacas]

8 minutes ago, Beastie said:

Was he actually fined😐? what for?? 

I just told you.

… "for calling Kang a cheater" (on Twitter).

[Beastie]

1 minute ago, iacas said:

I just told you.

… "for calling Kang a cheater" (on Twitter).

Was it the accusation or Twitter that gave offence though ? I am amazed he got fined. Harsh. 
That’s not encouraging any other players to call out suspect behaviour. 

[iacas]

14 minutes ago, Beastie said:

Was it the accusation or Twitter that gave offence though ? I am amazed he got fined. Harsh. 
That’s not encouraging any other players to call out suspect behaviour. 

PGA Tour players can't disparage a fellow member (especially to the media). It's in their bylaws/guidelines.

[Nagah]

On 2/6/2021 at 6:42 AM, Shorty said:

It is their obligation, but the backstopping controversy kind of indicated that there was a "cool players club" who helped each other out and scratched each others' backs.

Robert McIntyre incurred the wrath of Kyle Stanley when he criticised him on the course for not yelling "Fore!" As a rookie in his first Open, that was pretty ballsy.

I care because it makes people think it's normal. Like people giving and taking gimmes in non matchplay events.

I would guess that it's not widespread. Certainly some drops from sprinkler heads and paths are questionable. There would be marking infractions and there is absolutely anchoring on the Champions Tour with a couple of high profile players who use broomstick putters when the cameras are behind them.

As an amateur, I find it difficult to call players out and I have done it. Kind of ruins the day, but people have to learn that they're not invisible. For Tour players to speak up could have negative consequences.

The entire premise like you Shorty is protecting the field. I play in Albury,NSW. We pay our $13 and expect that all players competing in comps are playing by the rules. Hence, protecting the field. In saying that there was one retired AFL player who thought he could take advantage of his fame and play beyond the rules.He was called and ostrasised from every club on the border. 

 

 

[Vinsk]

On 2/5/2021 at 4:49 PM, GolfLug said:

Maybe some don't like confrontation

= No balls.

[GolfLug]

4 hours ago, Vinsk said:

= No balls.

So you think tour players, hundreds, even thousands, all of them, are magically a subset of the population that was born without balls?

 

[Vinsk]

1 hour ago, GolfLug said:

So you think tour players, hundreds, even thousands, all of them, are magically a subset of the population that was born without balls?

 

If they’re scared to speak up and protect the field.....hey...if the shoe fits. I bet if Brooks was paired with PR this situation would’ve gone a little differently.

[saevel25]

1 hour ago, Vinsk said:

If they’re scared to speak up and protect the field.....hey...if the shoe fits. I bet if Brooks was paired with PR this situation would’ve gone a little differently.

Doubt it. He might speak up after the round, but still PR didn’t break any rules. 

[iacas]

4 hours ago, GolfLug said:

So you think tour players, hundreds, even thousands, all of them, are magically a subset of the population that was born without balls?

They weren't born without them.

They've learned to put them in their valuables pouch in the deep recesses of their staff bag at the beginning of the round, though.

1 hour ago, saevel25 said:

Doubt it. He might speak up after the round, but still PR didn’t break any rules. 

+1.

[GolfLug]

3 hours ago, Vinsk said:

If they’re scared to speak up and protect the field.....hey...if the shoe fits.

Kevin, the shoe doesn't fit. They are not cowards.  I can certainly buy that some of these guys collude, backstopping and what have you. 

2 hours ago, iacas said:

They weren't born without them.

They've learned to put them in their valuables pouch in the deep recesses of their staff bag at the beginning of the round, though.

 

Sure, but why is the question for me. I don't feel like it's as straight forward as them being wusses.

[Vinsk]

19 minutes ago, GolfLug said:

but why is the question for me.

Because they’re cowards. Break it down. That’s the meat and bones of it.

1. Not cool to call out other players despite it being a moral obligation to protect the field? A rule? FEAR of being not cool.

2. ‘I don’t know the rules well enough to question.’ Ok...maybe not cowardly...but unprofessional and lazy.

3. ‘ I don’t want to get involved.’ Why not? Fear of retribution.

 

Edited February 8, 2021 by Vinsk

[GolfLug]

11 hours ago, Vinsk said:

Because they’re cowards. Break it down. That’s the meat and bones of it.

1. Not cool to call out other players despite it being a moral obligation to protect the field? A rule? FEAR of being not cool.

2. ‘I don’t know the rules well enough to question.’ Ok...maybe not cowardly...but unprofessional and lazy.

3. ‘ I don’t want to get involved.’ Why not? Fear of retribution.

Welp, not sure we are at the point of talking past each other, but here are my reasons: 

1. It's a brotherhood. There are cliques. Collusion. Again, see backstopping. 

2. That is straight up PGA's doing via the greatest cop out of all time, AKA the Lexi rule. It's like the PGA said - police yourself and each other but go ahead and don't bother to take it too seriously. It's laughable.

3. Indifference, self centeredness, self interest in staying focused on their own game? Like, ya know, people in every other walk of life. 

I believe Phil, Chamblee, whoever that there are a lot of liberties with rules on tour, but I see that because the parent body won't step up to the plate. It's systemic. And when the parent system fails people, they make their own. Don't blame the players.