How Would You Play This Hole (#1 at Giants Ridge, Quarry Course)

[lastings]

I think this might be a fun little exercise for those into LSW shot zone eggs, as well as strokes gained.   

Hole #1  - Giants Ridge - Quarry course - Biwabik, MN - 405yds

here's a nice flyover of the hole: 

 

The Quarry at Giants Ridge | Powered by Envisage

 

Also, I keep meticulous stats all summer on my strokes gained benchmarks.  So, this may be useful information to factor in.  

Driver - 278yds - Fairway% - 66
3W - 245yds - Fairway% 58

(This looks like my driver is more accurate, but not the case.   I'm just hitting my 3w into much tighter areas).
unfortunately, I have not mapped out actual shot eggs for each club, so you will have to guestimate: 

Fairways at my home course are about 40yds wide on every hole.  

Option 1: 3w short of the fairway bunker, leaving about 160 yds to the green:
Landing zone: 42 yds in fairway; 64 yds keeps it in play
avg. strokes to get down from 160yds - 3.44 from the fairway, 3.72 from the rough. 

Option 2: Driver right of the trap, leaving 130 to the green:
a couple notes for context.   
a) the rough right of the fairway is very playable. 
b) The shortest point of the bunker is 276 to clear, this is not possible, even with a breeze at the back.  
c) The fairway is down hill next to the bunker and slopes left after the bunker, so anything that lands in the fairway or even a bit in the rough is highly likely to remain in the fairway.

landing zone: 24 yds in fairway, 48 yds fairway/rough, 64yds fairway/rough/bunker
avg. strokes to get down from 130yds - 3.21 from fairway, 3.47 from rough, 4.16 from sand. 

 

 

how would you play it?  

 

 

 

 

[pganapathy]

A question that can make a difference to the decision.  How deep is the bunker and what club/s do you need for 130 to 150 yards.  I ask this because there is a hole on one of the courses I play where I am willing to risk a tiger line since the bunker along the entire edge of the fairway is fairly shallow and considering I would have around a 100 yards max I can hit a PW or at worst 9 iron and still hit the green.

If the bunker shot doesn't have too much risk, go for the driver.  On the other hand, a 3 wood means less risk but the second shot becomes 30 to 40 yards longer, which means less lofted club and harder to hit and hold the green.

[imsys0042]

My driver is straight to a fade.   I aim just right of the bunker with my driver and try to get as close to the green as possible.  

[Darkfrog]

Is that tree on the right side an issue if you are in the right rough past the bunker?

[NM Golf]

Depends on the tee I was playing. From the back (yellow) tees I would hit 3 wood right at that bunker leaving me a wedge or more likely a 9 iron left. From the blue tees, if I wanted to be aggressive, I would probably try to hit driver over that bunker (depending on wind, etc). A less risky approach from that tee would be a hybrid  at that bunker then wedge/ 9 iron to the green.

Looks like a good golf hole!

[DeadMan]

From the link, that bunker does not look like anything I want to deal with. It looks like there could be significant lip issues if you end up in the bunker off the tee. It doesn't look like the rough right of the fairway at the bunker is big enough to make that a good aiming point with driver, and way right looks like a lost ball to me. 

With that in mind, I'm taking a club that will be short of the bunker. It looks like a 3 wood.

[StuM]

My distances tell me to hit the driver since my drives rarely exceed 250 so the bunker is only in play if I hit a well above average shot.  However, for this conversation I will assume my distances are similar to yours and I would play short of the bunker.  The odds of a nGIR or GIR from @ 145 fairway bunker is not high for me and I could easily see bogey (or worse if I really mess up the bunker shot).  Naturally I would much prefer a 130 approach over 160 but I feel that may be worth less than a half-stroke on average to me. 

[klineka]

Just based on your description I would have said personally I'd hit driver aimed just to the right of the bunker and play my fade, but after watching the course flyover and seeing how tall those trees are on the right, it sure looks like they could get in the way of a 2nd shot if I missed in the right rough, especially since I would most likely be hitting some sort of flighted/knockdown wedge for my 2nd, so I would probably just lay back with hybrid or 3 wood depending on wind and which tees I was playing.

[StuM]

Another reason to hit my tee shot short of the bunker.  I can see myself hitting out of the fairway bunker and into one of the greenside bunkers.  The last thing I want on any hole is 2 bunker shots.  That never helps my score.

[lastings]

To answer a couple of the questions that have been asked:

1) the trees in the rough on the right are basically a non-issue, unless you drive the ball 310+ yards.  A full pw or gw clears them pretty easily. And unless you are way over by the cart path, they aren’t even in the way.    
 

2) the bunker in the fairway is very penal.  If you are in that bunker, you are very lucky if you have any option other than blast it out about 50 yds. 

[ZANDER1994]

If I’m playing whites I’m going 4i off the tee to the spot you have marked 3w. Then I would be hitting 9i or PW into the green depending on pin placement and if I am 155 or 165 out. 
 

This is one of those holes where the tips might actually be easier for me. I’d feel much more confident hitting a soft 275-285 yard fade with the driver to the driver landing spot you’ve marked and then hitting a 60 degree into the green. 

[lastings]

  On 8/14/2021 at 7:11 PM, ZANDER1994 said:

If I’m playing whites I’m going 4i off the tee to the spot you have marked 3w. Then I would be hitting 9i or PW into the green depending on pin placement and if I am 155 or 165 out. 
 

This is one of those holes where the tips might actually be easier for me. I’d feel much more confident hitting a soft 275-285 yard fade with the driver to the driver landing spot you’ve marked and then hitting a 60 degree into the green. 

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You hit a 4i 240 yds? 

[ZANDER1994]

  On 8/15/2021 at 9:12 PM, lastings said:

You hit a 4i 240 yds? 

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Yeah, a 4i off the tee will generally land me 240 on the dot. I hit my irons so well I don’t bother carrying hybrids. On this hole it’d be the safer play compared to driver. I have a pretty consistent 15yd gap between clubs:

D 285

5w 260

4i 240

5i 225

6i 210

7i 195

8i 180

9i 165

Pw 150

Sw 135

58 120

60 100

62 70

I don’t feel this is all that long but I’ll say I am young and only about 5 years  ago was a college athlete. I play with some guys who played ball at Notre Dame and no joke, one guy in our group would almost certainly pump one 350 up the right to chip in on this hole. 

[pganapathy]

  On 8/17/2021 at 5:24 AM, ZANDER1994 said:

Yeah, a 4i off the tee will generally land me 240 on the dot. I hit my irons so well I don’t bother carrying hybrids. On this hole it’d be the safer play compared to driver. I have a pretty consistent 15yd gap between clubs:

D 285

5w 260

4i 240

5i 225

6i 210

7i 195

8i 180

9i 165

Pw 150

Sw 135

58 120

60 100

62 70

I don’t feel this is all that long but I’ll say I am young and only about 5 years  ago was a college athlete. I play with some guys who played ball at Notre Dame and no joke, one guy in our group would almost certainly pump one 350 up the right to chip in on this hole. 

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Hitting a 4i 240 you should definitely hit your driver longer.  Not sure where the discrepancy is.  Possibly your swing with your irons is better than your driver.  Maybe you aren't hitting the driver optimally for distance.  Maybe your distance with the 4 iron is overstated.  I don't know

[klineka]

  On 8/17/2021 at 5:24 AM, ZANDER1994 said:

D 285

5w 260

4i 240

5i 225

6i 210

7i 195

8i 180

9i 165

Pw 150

Sw 135

58 120

60 100

62 70

I don’t feel this is all that long 

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That's a ridiculous statement. Your yardages are further than most PGA tour players and you don't feel that you hit it very long?? C'mon man.

Also you hit the ball that far and you are still a 15 handicap?? I know there's more to golf than hitting it far but you must have some sort of glaring weakness in another aspect of your game for you to still be a 15 handicap with distances like that.

[ZANDER1994]

  On 8/17/2021 at 1:07 PM, klineka said:

That's a ridiculous statement. Your yardages are further than most PGA tour players and you don't feel that you hit it very long?? C'mon man.

Also you hit the ball that far and you are still a 15 handicap?? I know there's more to golf than hitting it far but you must have some sort of glaring weakness in another aspect of your game for you to still be a 15 handicap with distances like that.

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I don’t think it’s uncommon to run into young players or retired athletes from other sports that hit it just as far as PGA players. I see it frequently in our alumni league.

Most people grossly over estimate the advantage of distance at the amateur level. Distance can be the deciding factor for pros because an extra 10-20 yards makes a significant difference for the next shot. They are good enough to capitalize on it. For amateurs who play once a week, that advantage disappears because they still struggle with the occasional snap hook, duffs, 3 putts, and most of all bad course management that makes them lose balls. A 300 yard drive that gets a little pushy is a lot more likely to end up OB than a 220 drive with the same problem. 
 

I’d also say it’s well known college players hit it significantly further than PGA players. Most players dial back their distances after a few years on the PGA for accuracy control. DeChambeau is the exception to the rule.

 

[klineka]

  On 8/17/2021 at 1:56 PM, ZANDER1994 said:

I don’t think it’s uncommon to run into young players or retired athletes from other sports that hit it just as far as PGA players. I see it frequently in our alumni league.

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I'm not disagreeing with that, but that doesn't mean you're not a long hitter. Your distances most likely put you in the top 10%, if not top 5% of all golfers on the planet.

  On 8/17/2021 at 1:56 PM, ZANDER1994 said:

Most people grossly over estimate the advantage of distance at the amateur level. Distance can be the deciding factor for pros because an extra 10-20 yards makes a significant difference for the next shot. They are good enough to capitalize on it. For amateurs who play once a week, that advantage disappears because they still struggle with the occasional snap hook, duffs, 3 putts, and most of all bad course management that makes them lose balls. A 300 yard drive that gets a little pushy is a lot more likely to end up OB than a 220 drive with the same problem. 

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But when you compare amateur golfers of similar skill levels, like a 90s golfer vs a 90s golfer, scratch golfer vs scratch golfer, over a large enough sample size those things like the occasional snap hook, duffs, etc will largely even out and the 90s golfer who hits it 30+ yds further than an average 90s golfer will still have an advantage. 

  On 8/17/2021 at 1:56 PM, ZANDER1994 said:

Most players dial back their distances after a few years on the PGA for accuracy control. DeChambeau is the exception to the rule.

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Are you sure about that? Do you have any sources to back up that claim? I have heard of far more PGA tour players chasing speed and distance than I have of players saying they are hitting it too far and they want to reduce their distances to be more accurate.

[ZANDER1994]

  On 8/17/2021 at 2:34 PM, klineka said:

I'm not disagreeing with that, but that doesn't mean you're not a long hitter. Your distances most likely put you in the top 10%, if not top 5% of all golfers on the planet.

But when you compare amateur golfers of similar skill levels, like a 90s golfer vs a 90s golfer, scratch golfer vs scratch golfer, over a large enough sample size those things like the occasional snap hook, duffs, etc will largely even out and the 90s golfer who hits it 30+ yds further than an average 90s golfer will still have an advantage. 

Are you sure about that? Do you have any sources to back up that claim? I have heard of far more PGA tour players chasing speed and distance than I have of players saying they are hitting it too far and they want to reduce their distances to be more accurate.

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Around the time Cameron Champ hit the PGA I recall he was being talked about quite a bit for his driving distance. Tiger was asked by an interviewer how he felt about it and in the video Tiger shakes his head and he says every year the media goes on about some young kid and how far he hits it. He goes on to say we’re aware these college kids hit it really far but when they get to tour they realize they need to hit fairway due to the rough being a lot more punishing. He reflected on being the same way when he was starting out and then he changed his swing to focus on accuracy and then he started winning a lot more. I remember the interview vividly but I am not sure where to find it now. 

I’m not saying speed isn’t important. It is. But when I play alone I often get paired with old guys who frankly say silly things like “gosh I wish I could hit the ball like that” when they are literally par’ing every hole and I’m settling for bogey. I’m literally in awe of them and they don’t give themselves enough credit. The vast majority of single digit golfers I have played with are old and not particularly long. If I had $100 to bet on the lowest shooting player in my clubhouse on a given day, I’d put it on the guy in his 60s playing 20 year old persimmons over the young kid who hits it long every time.