Can Ball Be Embedded Vertically

[GloriaDG]

I have been trying to get an answer to this issue for a while now. We have a number of bunkers that have grassy faces where balls are easily lodged in their tract, usually a lot deeper than shown on this image. Would this ball be considered embedded as it is stuck in the path it made, as mentioned it is usually lodged  10 to 20 cm into the face. If embedded,  would one be allowed a free drop not in the sand and not nearer the hole within on club length from where the ball is lodged. If no such relief is attainable then I assume you could take a penalty for unplayable ball and use the 3 options available under this rule.

 

[boogielicious]

24 minutes ago, GloriaDG said:

I have been trying to get an answer to this issue for a while now. We have a number of bunkers that have grassy faces where balls are easily lodged in their tract, usually a lot deeper than shown on this image. Would this ball be considered embedded as it is stuck in the path it made, as mentioned it is usually lodged  10 to 20 cm into the face. If embedded,  would one be allowed a free drop not in the sand and not nearer the hole within on club length from where the ball is lodged. If no such relief is attainable then I assume you could take a penalty for unplayable ball and use the 3 options available under this rule.

 

I believe the answer is yes, this is imbedded. It happened the Charlie Hoffman and a tournament a couple of years back and he got to drop up top to one side within a driver length. It was a fairway bunker.

[DaveP043]

To me, that ball looks to be embedded in the General Area.  Relief is generally available.  The Reference Point is the spot "right behind" the ball.  Depending on the location of the hole, that spot might be in the bunker.  The Relief Area is within 1 clublength of the Reference Point, no nearer the hole, and MUST be in the General Area (i.e. not in the bunker).  Again, depending on the location  of the hole, and the geometry of the bunker, this might leave only a very small section of General Area, with most of the ground within one CL being in the bunker.  Its also possible that the available Relief Area could be very steeply sloping, so a ball dropped won't stay, maybe the ball won't stay even when placed.  If that's the case, follow Rule 14.3, and place the ball on the nearest spot where it will remain at rest.  This spot might be outside the 1 CL Relief Area.

There is a small chance that you may not get free relief.  If the entire potential Relief Area is in the bunker itself, you don't get Embedded Ball Relief, but you may take Unplayable Ball Relief.  This is in Clarification 16.3b.  Note that for Embedded Ball Relief, you may drop in any area of the course, subject to the limitations on size and location of the Relief Area.

[iacas]

8 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

This is in Clarification 16.3b.

Which says, for future reference and because it appears it may apply here:

  Rule 16.3b:

1. Player Not Always Allowed to Take Embedded Ball Relief:

If a player’s ball is embedded in the general area but neither the reference point nor any part of the course within one club-length of the reference point is in the general area, the player is not allowed to take free relief under Rule 16.3b.

For example, free relief is not allowed if:

- a ball is embedded at the very base of the lip, wall or face above a bunker,

- the spot right behind the ball is in the bunker and

- within one club-length of and not nearer the hole from that reference point, there is no part of the relief area that is in the general area. (Added 12/2018)

---

Though perhaps if the hole is straight ahead, there's relief to the left that's no closer to the hole in the OP.

[klineka]

1 hour ago, DaveP043 said:

There is a small chance that you may not get free relief.  If the entire potential Relief Area is in the bunker itself, you don't get Embedded Ball Relief, but you may take Unplayable Ball Relief.  This is in Clarification 16.3b.  Note that for Embedded Ball Relief, you may drop in any area of the course, subject to the limitations on size and location of the Relief Area.

1 hour ago, iacas said:

Which says, for future reference and because it appears it may apply here:

  Rule 16.3b:

1. Player Not Always Allowed to Take Embedded Ball Relief:

If a player’s ball is embedded in the general area but neither the reference point nor any part of the course within one club-length of the reference point is in the general area, the player is not allowed to take free relief under Rule 16.3b.

For example, free relief is not allowed if:

- a ball is embedded at the very base of the lip, wall or face above a bunker,

- the spot right behind the ball is in the bunker and

- within one club-length of and not nearer the hole from that reference point, there is no part of the relief area that is in the general area. (Added 12/2018)

---

Though perhaps if the hole is straight ahead, there's relief to the left that's no closer to the hole in the OP.

So based on what you guys are saying, if OP's ball is in the lip in the middle of the bunker (aka more than a club length from either the left or right side) free relief would not apply in OP's picture ? 

Since the reference point of "right behind" is in the bunker and there would be no general area within one club length of the reference point?

In which case taking an unplayable would make the most sense for a penalty stroke and perhaps either go lateral 2 club length relief or go straight back on a line relief and drop behind the bunker?

[DaveP043]

50 minutes ago, klineka said:

So based on what you guys are saying, if OP's ball is in the lip in the middle of the bunker (aka more than a club length from either the left or right side) free relief would not apply in OP's picture ? 

Since the reference point of "right behind" is in the bunker and there would be no general area within one club length of the reference point?

In which case taking an unplayable would make the most sense for a penalty stroke and perhaps either go lateral 2 club length relief or go straight back on a line relief and drop behind the bunker?

Or play Stroke and Distance.  In a very rare case, it might makes sense to take relief in the bunker, depending on the specifics of the other relief options, proximity to the green, etc.  But the case you describe is an almost exact match for the example in the Clarification, which @iacas quoted up there.

[The Flush]

 

[boogielicious]

3 hours ago, The Flush said:

 

That’s what happened to Hoffman a couple of years ago and maybe the Shriners. He could move laterally no closer to the hole and drop out of the bunker.

[mdl]

So like, don't ever roll a ball up into the front lip of piece of a bunker where the edge is convex in relation to the hole (i.e. curving away from you on both sides viewed from the tee). Per the Woods and Hoffman cases, this is probably a very rare occurence 🤷🏼‍♂️

[DaveP043]

2 hours ago, mdl said:

So like, don't ever roll a ball up into the front lip of piece of a bunker where the edge is convex in relation to the hole (i.e. curving away from you on both sides viewed from the tee). Per the Woods and Hoffman cases, this is probably a very rare occurence 🤷🏼‍♂️

Woods did get a drop, there was legitimate Relief Area available.

[mdl]

2 hours ago, DaveP043 said:

Woods did get a drop, there was legitimate Relief Area available.

Yeah that's what I meant. It's possible but extremely rare that everything behind the line through your ball perpendicular to the line to the flag is trap (which is the only case when you wouldn't get a drop because you have no general area to drop in). I guess this also means that embedded ball isn't one of the cases that got included in the bucket where one option is to go back on the line to the flag as far as you want

 

[klineka]

10 hours ago, DaveP043 said:

Or play Stroke and Distance.  In a very rare case, it might makes sense to take relief in the bunker, depending on the specifics of the other relief options, proximity to the green, etc.  But the case you describe is an almost exact match for the example in the Clarification, which @iacas quoted up there.

Maybe I wasn't quite clear in what I was asking.

What happens if the ball is embedded like the picture above (which means the reference point is in the bunker, right?) , but one club length to the left or right still remains in the bunker?

No free relief then, right?

[iacas]

10 minutes ago, klineka said:

Maybe I wasn't quite clear in what I was asking.

What happens if the ball is embedded like the picture above (which means the reference point is in the bunker, right?) , but one club length to the left or right still remains in the bunker?

No free relief then, right?

Yes, but this has been answered… As noted above, relief must be in the general area. Hence the clarification that relief may not be available.

Lawyer voice: "Asked and answered, your honor."

[phillyk]

I had this exact situation occur in an us open qualifier last year. Player’s ball plugged into side of bunker but we determined it was in grass not the bunker. So he got relief, no closer to hole and was able to drop up on top of the bunker with a reasonable lie and stance. Took a while to get the rules official to agree it was in grass instead of sand. 

[saevel25]

I had this down at Pinehurst. Talamore golf course, hole #9, ended up in the bunker short of the green. The face of the bunker is layered artificial turf. Ball got stuck in the face of the bunker at the last gap between the top and 2nd layer. 

 

[DaveP043]

10 hours ago, klineka said:

Maybe I wasn't quite clear in what I was asking.

What happens if the ball is embedded like the picture above (which means the reference point is in the bunker, right?) , but one club length to the left or right still remains in the bunker?

No free relief then, right?

Yeah, if the Reference Point is in the bunker, and the entire "potential" Relief Area (1 clublength, no closer to the hole) is also in the bunker, there is no free relief for the Embedded Ball.