Sandbagging in Club Tournaments

[Vinsk]

Sandbagging is simply a differentiation of the two types of golfers (sports in general) those who want to be the best they can be and those who just want to win. I would much rather play in a tournament and shoot my personal best and place last place than to win knowing I didn't do it fairly or for that matter....shoot a mediocre score and win because I was improperly flighted. When I play, if I scull a shot but get a lucky roll and I end up close to the pin....ok...but I'm still disappointed for hitting it poorly. Sandbaggers are kinda pathetic to me. Just see nothing good coming out of that childish behavior.

[Mac62]

Sandbagging is simply a differentiation of the two types of golfers (sports in general) those who want to be the best they can be and those who just want to win. I would much rather play in a tournament and shoot my personal best and place last place than to win knowing I didn't do it fairly or for that matter....shoot a mediocre score and win because I was improperly flighted.

When I play, if I scull a shot but get a lucky roll and I end up close to the pin....ok...but I'm still disappointed for hitting it poorly.

Sandbaggers are kinda pathetic to me. Just see nothing good coming out of that childish behavior.

I've never understood the psychology behind wanting to win when you know you really didn't win.  It's a twisted way to build self-esteem, especially when you know deep inside that you didn't deserve it and you're actually a worse person for cheating.  I'd feel a lot better about fighting my way to a top ten finish fair and square rather than cheating my way to a phony/dishonest win.

[rkim291968]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vinsk

Sandbagging is simply a differentiation of the two types of golfers (sports in general) those who want to be the best they can be and those who just want to win. I would much rather play in a tournament and shoot my personal best and place last place than to win knowing I didn't do it fairly or for that matter....shoot a mediocre score and win because I was improperly flighted.

When I play, if I scull a shot but get a lucky roll and I end up close to the pin....ok...but I'm still disappointed for hitting it poorly.

Sandbaggers are kinda pathetic to me. Just see nothing good coming out of that childish behavior.

I've never understood the psychology behind wanting to win when you know you really didn't win.  It's a twisted way to build self-esteem, especially when you know deep inside that you didn't deserve it and you're actually a worse person for cheating.  I'd feel a lot better about fighting my way to a top ten finish fair and square rather than cheating my way to a phony/dishonest win.

I think you captured it in bold.   IMO, it is a form of a personality flaw - a twisted mind.  Back to my club ... I don't think anyone is doing it for the prize money which is small for most tournaments.   But for 2 - 3 tournaments,  entry fee and prize are huge, with luncheon and trophy presentation, etc..   I can see how egotistic, twisted golfers can be driven to capture their piece of the glory (and pie).   Pathetic but human nature for those with warrior gene (?) among us .    I don't play in those mega tournaments.   No point wasting my money and energy into a flawed system.

[skywaterbanjo]

This all brings to mind the Dean Knuth Tournament Point System.

http://www.popeofslope.com/pointsystem/

Dean Knuth helped the USGA when it implemented the Slope system, and has remained interested in handicapping issues.   I won't get into details of it here, you can read about at his website, but basically he proposes a system that identifies players who perform disproportionately well in club tournaments.  I think this has merit in that the system doesn't evaluate your scores against a set of statistical norms, but evaluates your performance as measured against your fellow members.  If you place high enough in a a large enough number of net competitions, your handicap for tournaments at your club would be reduced.  Your USGA handicap index wouldn't change, just the strokes you get in home tournaments.  Its an interesting approach to in-club sandbagging.

Do any of you belong to clubs that have implemented this system?  The club I'm joining next summer has started doing this.  Jury is still out.  I'd be curious to get feedback from those who have played in tournaments and won with this system in place.

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveP043

This all brings to mind the Dean Knuth Tournament Point System.

http://www.popeofslope.com/pointsystem/

Dean Knuth helped the USGA when it implemented the Slope system, and has remained interested in handicapping issues.   I won't get into details of it here, you can read about at his website, but basically he proposes a system that identifies players who perform disproportionately well in club tournaments.  I think this has merit in that the system doesn't evaluate your scores against a set of statistical norms, but evaluates your performance as measured against your fellow members.  If you place high enough in a a large enough number of net competitions, your handicap for tournaments at your club would be reduced.  Your USGA handicap index wouldn't change, just the strokes you get in home tournaments.  Its an interesting approach to in-club sandbagging.

Do any of you belong to clubs that have implemented this system?  The club I'm joining next summer has started doing this.  Jury is still out.  I'd be curious to get feedback from those who have played in tournaments and won with this system in place.

I'm not sure if it was specifically this system, but we had one guy in the men's club I used to play in who was a blatant sandbagger.  The committee "adjusted' his handicap down 3 strokes, which moved him one or two flights up for stroke play.  He appealed, and they showed him the numbers (his tournament scores for 6 straight competitions were consistently that much lower than the casual rounds that he submitted at least 5 times each week for handicap - his highest tournament score was the same as his lowest casual round) - they essentially called him a sandbagger to his face - and he quit the club.  We threw a party to commemorate the event.

[rkim291968]

Quote:

Originally Posted by skywaterbanjo

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveP043

This all brings to mind the Dean Knuth Tournament Point System.

http://www.popeofslope.com/pointsystem/

Dean Knuth helped the USGA when it implemented the Slope system, and has remained interested in handicapping issues.   I won't get into details of it here, you can read about at his website, but basically he proposes a system that identifies players who perform disproportionately well in club tournaments.  I think this has merit in that the system doesn't evaluate your scores against a set of statistical norms, but evaluates your performance as measured against your fellow members.  If you place high enough in a a large enough number of net competitions, your handicap for tournaments at your club would be reduced.  Your USGA handicap index wouldn't change, just the strokes you get in home tournaments.  Its an interesting approach to in-club sandbagging.

Do any of you belong to clubs that have implemented this system?  The club I'm joining next summer has started doing this.  Jury is still out.  I'd be curious to get feedback from those who have played in tournaments and won with this system in place.

I'm not sure if it was specifically this system, but we had one guy in the men's club I used to play in who was a blatant sandbagger.  The committee "adjusted' his handicap down 3 strokes, which moved him one or two flights up for stroke play.  He appealed, and they showed him the numbers (his tournament scores for 6 straight competitions were consistently that much lower than the casual rounds that he submitted at least 5 times each week for handicap - his highest tournament score was the same as his lowest casual round) - they essentially called him a sandbagger to his face - and he quit the club.  We threw a party to commemorate the event.

It's a good system, IMO.   Just having it will likely push the would be sandbaggers to behave better.   The same set of guys winning unusual number of tournaments year after year is what my club is facing.   Some are, IMO, blatant examples, like only recording few numbers all year and using that higher handicap for tournament play.  This likely caused the committee to send out notice to record/submit all scores, and the club will start entering tournament scores instead leaving it to players.   The typical reasons of "I focus better on tournament," "I got lucky" don't translate well when they are defying the odd.

A subtle sandbagging I have witnessed repeatedly is that when a match is over in essence, I've seen players suddenly play lousy the rest of the way (missing gimmie range putts, not focusing on ball strikes).    For example, two guys play a club match play.  One plays well and wins the match 5 & 4.  For the remaining 4 holes, he goofs off and adds strokes to his excellent score through 14th hole.   First time I've seen this, my reaction was "what? why?"     I used to play straight up match with my brother.  There were 2 handicap stroke difference between two of us.   And 2 is enough of a skill set difference such that the lower handicap of us won majority (like 75%) of the straight up matches.   These subtle sandbagging can add up to make the difference (a few strokes) in winning a match play or not.

Despite this, I will continue to play in tournaments.   One day, I will have the odd defying round of my life and win one.   Until then, I will be enjoying the experience.

[Fourputt]

A subtle sandbagging I have witnessed repeatedly is that when a match is over in essence, I've seen players suddenly play lousy the rest of the way (missing gimmie range putts, not focusing on ball strikes).    For example, two guys play a club match play.  One plays well and wins the match 5 & 4.  For the remaining 4 holes, he goofs off and adds strokes to his excellent score through 14th hole.   First time I've seen this, my reaction was "what? why?"     I used to play straight up match with my brother.  There were 2 handicap stroke difference between two of us.   And 2 is enough of a skill set difference such that the lower handicap of us won majority (like 75%) of the straight up matches.   These subtle sandbagging can add up to make the difference (a few strokes) in winning a match play or not.

Despite this, I will continue to play in tournaments.   One day, I will have the odd defying round of my life and win one.   Until then, I will be enjoying the experience.

I wouldn't be too quick to call foul on this.  I've had it happen to me - when a match is decided with 2 or more holes left to play, there is an automatic tendency to let down.  It isn't necessarily sandbagging - it certainly wasn't for me - it's just a loss of focus, a natural relaxing of ones concentration when there is no longer any incentive to bear down.  It looks like it's intentional, but that may very well not be the case.  I'd probably be right there with you if I hadn't experienced it personally, and no matter how hard I felt like I was trying, I couldn't regain my concentration with just a few holes left to play.

It would probably make better sense to just leave those last few holes unfinished and score par plus any handicap strokes allowed per the handicap manual.

[rkim291968]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rkim291968

A subtle sandbagging I have witnessed repeatedly is that when a match is over in essence, I've seen players suddenly play lousy the rest of the way (missing gimmie range putts, not focusing on ball strikes).    For example, two guys play a club match play.  One plays well and wins the match 5 & 4.  For the remaining 4 holes, he goofs off and adds strokes to his excellent score through 14th hole.   First time I've seen this, my reaction was "what? why?"     I used to play straight up match with my brother.  There were 2 handicap stroke difference between two of us.   And 2 is enough of a skill set difference such that the lower handicap of us won majority (like 75%) of the straight up matches.   These subtle sandbagging can add up to make the difference (a few strokes) in winning a match play or not.

Despite this, I will continue to play in tournaments.   One day, I will have the odd defying round of my life and win one.   Until then, I will be enjoying the experience.

I wouldn't be too quick to call foul on this.  I've had it happen to me - when a match is decided with 2 or more holes left to play, there is an automatic tendency to let down.  It isn't necessarily sandbagging - it certainly wasn't for me - it's just a loss of focus, a natural relaxing of ones concentration when there is no longer any incentive to bear down.  It looks like it's intentional, but that may very well not be the case.  I'd probably be right there with you if I hadn't experienced it personally, and no matter how hard I felt like I was trying, I couldn't regain my concentration with just a few holes left to play.

It would probably make better sense to just leave those last few holes unfinished and score par plus any handicap strokes allowed per the handicap manual.

You may be right on that.   That's why I used the word "subtle."   They may be doing that unintentionally or intentionally.   It's impossible to know.   As for me, I tried to play every hole to best of my ability (more for my pride than anything).   To each his own.

[DaveP043]

I wouldn't be too quick to call foul on this.  I've had it happen to me - when a match is decided with 2 or more holes left to play, there is an automatic tendency to let down.  It isn't necessarily sandbagging - it certainly wasn't for me - it's just a loss of focus, a natural relaxing of ones concentration when there is no longer any incentive to bear down.  It looks like it's intentional, but that may very well not be the case.  I'd probably be right there with you if I hadn't experienced it personally, and no matter how hard I felt like I was trying, I couldn't regain my concentration with just a few holes left to play.

It would probably make better sense to just leave those last few holes unfinished and score par plus any handicap strokes allowed per the handicap manual.

I've seen this happen as well, and I agree that its impossible to be sure whether its intentional or not.  Our interclub league has revised our scoring methods, so that each hole counts for a point, and total points for 6 fourball matches determines the winner of the over-all match.  I've seen overall matches decided by a single hole, and playoffs determined by just 2 holes out of 864 holes played in an 8 match season.  That keeps everyone playing on every single hole.

Of course, I've seen the opposite happen in a few matches.  Once its been decided, the pressure is off, you can breathe a little more comfortably, and it can become a bit easier to make a smooth relaxed swing.

[MrFlipper]

You may be right on that.   That's why I used the word "subtle."   They may be doing that unintentionally or intentionally.   It's impossible to know.   As for me, I tried to play every hole to best of my ability (more for my pride than anything).   To each his own.

Naw, I agree with your previous post. Maybe 1 out of 10 is letdown, the vast majority I've seen (and I've seen a lot) is managing handicaps.

I even remember one guy waking up on the 18th tee and saying "what am I doing?" he woke up enough to magically card a double bogey on the 18th (his ESC max, coincidentally). If you didn't know the guy and the timing, you wouldn't think twice about it. Some folks are very good at managing those things

[Big C]

Our club requires that unfinished match play holes be posted at par + handicap strokes, regardless of what the player shoots. Since 16-18 are the 18, 12, and 16 rated holes, it means most golfers should be posting pars once their match is finished. Of course, I know for a fact that several members don't know this rule and so there are probably a lot of folks out there posting 1 or 2 strokes higher than they should. In the grand scheme of things, it's not a big deal but I wish the club would do a better job of publicizing that rule. I only know because I specifically asked the handicap chairman after another member brought it to my attention.

[rkim291968]

Our club requires that unfinished match play holes be posted at par + handicap strokes, regardless of what the player shoots.

That is another sound policy.

[nick1998bunker]

Don't play net tournaments... My club had a tournament and judging by the scoreboard they all were sandbaggers. Unless it wasn't stroke play but I think it was. 4 scores out of about 15 in the 50s and only 1 score in the 70s.

[VOX]

In our big annual invitational, my club always cuts a players handicap by a couple of strokes if it their first time playing in an event at our club and they often call their home club to find out what kind of player they are. They also cut players who seem to have a history of excelling at net tournaments.

[Big C]

Don't play net tournaments... My club had a tournament and judging by the scoreboard they all were sandbaggers. Unless it wasn't stroke play but I think it was. 4 scores out of about 15 in the 50s and only 1 score in the 70s.

I'm guessing that the tournament scores you saw were for a scramble, shamble or other similar format. Our men's club has 300-plus members and awards a monthly prize for the low net & low gross tournament scores. Last year's low net was 63. There hasn't been a net score in the 50's in over 3 years. And this is a club where tournament participation is usually 150 players or more. A net score in the 50's is extremely rare.

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by nick1998bunker

Don't play net tournaments... My club had a tournament and judging by the scoreboard they all were sandbaggers. Unless it wasn't stroke play but I think it was. 4 scores out of about 15 in the 50s and only 1 score in the 70s.

I'm guessing that the tournament scores you saw were for a scramble, shamble or other similar format. Our men's club has 300-plus members and awards a monthly prize for the low net & low gross tournament scores. Last year's low net was 63. There hasn't been a net score in the 50's in over 3 years. And this is a club where tournament participation is usually 150 players or more. A net score in the 50's is extremely rare.

Agreed.  My men's club had 250 members, and in the few tournaments where net scores were posted, 64 or 65 was usually the lowest we saw.  Most stroke play tournaments were flighted and played scratch within the flight, so many times there were no net scores to see.

Don't play net tournaments... My club had a tournament and judging by the scoreboard they all were sandbaggers. Unless it wasn't stroke play but I think it was. 4 scores out of about 15 in the 50s and only 1 score in the 70s.

To nick1998:  Typical amateurs don't play scratch competitions unless they are flighted, and even then the flights are based on handicap for leveling.  Your statement is either stupid or elitist, or you are clueless.  You have the luxury as a low single digit cap of being competitive in most groups, but most of us are not, nor will we ever be, in that category.  I can't imagine how anyone could get any enjoyment from 2 and 3 handicaps playing straight up against 15 and 20 handicaps.  Maybe there are some weirdos who would enjoy winning or getting trounced that badly with absolutely no chance of being competitive, but nobody I've ever known falls into that group.

[nick1998bunker]

Agreed.  My men's club had 250 members, and in the few tournaments where net scores were posted, 64 or 65 was usually the lowest we saw.  Most stroke play tournaments were flighted and played scratch within the flight, so many times there were no net scores to see. To nick1998:  Typical amateurs don't play scratch competitions unless they are flighted, and even then the flights are based on handicap for leveling.  Your statement is either stupid or elitist, or you are clueless.  You have the luxury as a low single digit cap of being competitive in most groups, but most of us are not, nor will we ever be, in that category.  I can't imagine how anyone could get any enjoyment from 2 and 3 handicaps playing straight up against 15 and 20 handicaps.  Maybe there are some weirdos who would enjoy winning or getting trounced that badly with absolutely no chance of being competitive, but nobody I've ever known falls into that group.

that's why I said typical amateurs should not play net tournaments. I do not have the luxury of a low hdcp I have worked for it and earned it. Not just any hacker should be able to show up play like crap and win just because he has a false handicap. The enjoyment comes from knowing you are improving and seeing that the hard work you have put in is putting you closer to your goal. Anybody can be a low handicap it's not hard if you spend the time. A lot of the guys I see "winning" couldn't tell you what bounce was if their life depended on it.

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

Agreed.  My men's club had 250 members, and in the few tournaments where net scores were posted, 64 or 65 was usually the lowest we saw.  Most stroke play tournaments were flighted and played scratch within the flight, so many times there were no net scores to see.

To nick1998:  Typical amateurs don't play scratch competitions unless they are flighted, and even then the flights are based on handicap for leveling.  Your statement is either stupid or elitist, or you are clueless.  You have the luxury as a low single digit cap of being competitive in most groups, but most of us are not, nor will we ever be, in that category.  I can't imagine how anyone could get any enjoyment from 2 and 3 handicaps playing straight up against 15 and 20 handicaps.  Maybe there are some weirdos who would enjoy winning or getting trounced that badly with absolutely no chance of being competitive, but nobody I've ever known falls into that group.

that's why I said typical amateurs should not play net tournaments. I do not have the luxury of a low hdcp I have worked for it and earned it. Not just any hacker should be able to show up play like crap and win just because he has a false handicap. The enjoyment comes from knowing you are improving and seeing that the hard work you have put in is putting you closer to your goal. Anybody can be a low handicap it's not hard if you spend the time. A lot of the guys I see "winning" couldn't tell you what bounce was if their life depended on it.

This is where you are wrong.  "Anybody" can't be a low handicap.  "Anybody" lacks the hand/eye coordination to consistently hit the shots required for it.  If you believe it's within "Anyone's" reach, then you are fantasizing.  If that's all it took then half the guys I knew in the men's club would have been there.  I know guys who spent 4 evenings a week at the range, worked their asses off, played 2 or 3 rounds every weekend, and still never sniffed a handicap below 10.  You are somehow not seeing reality.