Thoughts on Swing Changes - Ingraining New Swing

[RickardSwe]

Hi,

with an online coach I finally managed to stay behind the ball, have spine tilt in downswing, shaft lean at impact and a nice release out front.

My previous habits were to kinda move too much laterally and get stuck with the arms.

However, for me to perform a good swing it takes alot of recording and checking everything looks okay. If I want to have a good ratio of good swings to bad swings its a lof of effort stil so I do it best at home into a net (I have a R10 so I see I have okay ball flight and launch angle etc).

However, when I go to the range I feel like the ratio good to bad swings suffers and even if I record and try to check it often its just not the same as at home I guess.

Just curious with your experiences on improving the swing and in different environments?

I could also just play more golf and worry less about the swing I guess, and just go back and work on it off and on, but nothing ever changes that way I guess?

[iacas]

You're likely doing a bad job of the third if not all of the "S" words.

[klineka]

15 minutes ago, RickardSwe said:

However, for me to perform a good swing it takes alot of recording and checking everything looks okay. If I want to have a good ratio of good swings to bad swings its a lof of effort stil so I do it best at home into a net (I have a R10 so I see I have okay ball flight and launch angle etc).

However, when I go to the range I feel like the ratio good to bad swings suffers and even if I record and try to check it often its just not the same as at home I guess.

Everything you described here is normal when making a swing change. If you can execute it at home but not at the range then that means when you are at the range you need to slow down until you can effectively make the "correct" swing. 

Read through this, it should help

 

22 minutes ago, RickardSwe said:

I could also just play more golf and worry less about the swing I guess, and just go back and work on it off and on, but nothing ever changes that way I guess?

You don't need to play more golf unless you want to, but IMO when you are playing, focus on playing, not making your swing changes(s). It's fine to have a "feel" that you take with you to the course that helps reinforce the swing change, but when you are playing a round, focus on playing the round and when you are at the range/at home, focus on making the swing change. The ~30ish full swings you do during that round won't set you back in terms of making progress on your swing change.

Over time the more and more you properly practice the swing change off the course, it will eventually bleed into your on course swing, but it will probably take longer than you think depending on how big the swing change is and how often you practice.

[ChetlovesMer]

4 minutes ago, klineka said:

when you are playing, focus on playing, not making your swing changes(s).

This is good advice, but difficult to do. I try to do this, but it often ends up a complete mess. Especially if you don't get some range time before you play. 

@iacasonce told me use your pre-round range time to find a single "swing-thought" that you can use during the round to get you through it. For me that seems to be the best method, although even with that it's often still a mess. Ask @Carl3 if you don't believe me. 

 

5 minutes ago, klineka said:

Over time the more and more you properly practice the swing change off the course, it will eventually bleed into your on course swing, but it will probably take longer than you think depending on how big the swing change is and how often you practice.

This is a fact.

If you can, you can try to get good video of yourself on the course. You can see which parts you are working on are sticking and which are not. 

[RickardSwe]

7 hours ago, ChetlovesMer said:

This is good advice, but difficult to do. I try to do this, but it often ends up a complete mess. Especially if you don't get some range time before you play. 

@iacasonce told me use your pre-round range time to find a single "swing-thought" that you can use during the round to get you through it. For me that seems to be the best method, although even with that it's often still a mess. Ask @Carl3 if you don't believe me. 

 

This is a fact.

If you can, you can try to get good video of yourself on the course. You can see which parts you are working on are sticking and which are not. 

Thanks for the replies.

I think I will just make sure to practice in different environments (different ranges, courses with less people etc) and always make sure to check on camera whats going on. I will resist the urge to get sucked in to just hitting ball after ball on the range with no feedback.

Another thing I think I read somewhere, is the idea that for example making 10 good reps/swings 5 times a days is better than doing 50 good reps in a row? If you think about it takes alot more mental effort and reflection that way. I dont know the science behind this or if it is true. Anybody have any thought about this?

 

 

[Vinsk]

48 minutes ago, RickardSwe said:

think I read somewhere, is the idea that for example making 10 good reps/swings 5 times a days is better than doing 50 good reps in a row?

I think that correlates with the idea of learning in general. Research was done showing studying done in 2 hour increments with relaxation/activity between was better than just going at it for 8 hours straight. 

[Denny Bang Bang]

@RickardSwe I’ve been working through a few swing changes this winter as well.  I’ve experienced the same thing as you.  With the mirror and tools (mostly a plane tool) at home, it’s easy for me to have checkpoints and find the positions I’m working on.  Then at the in person lessons or range, it would take a little more time to find it (without the mirror and tools to constantly check against).  The pro I’m working with has helped me find other ways to check positions so I’m able to do it on course or the range, and he also stressed the importance of taking the changes to the outdoor range as I get more comfortable with them.

It’s been about 3 months now and a ton of work (I’ve literally practiced a minimum of 30 minutes every day for the past 3 months, typically twice a day for 15-30 mins a piece), but it’s starting to settle in a bit and the outdoor range sessions have improved.  Still a bit of focused effort ahead to fully ingrain the changes.

Good luck on your swing changes, I’ll be curious to see how everything is coming along for you!

[iacas]

8 minutes ago, Denny Bang Bang said:

@RickardSwe I’ve been working through a few swing changes this winter as well.  I’ve experienced the same thing as you.  With the mirror and tools (mostly a plane tool) at home, it’s easy for me to have checkpoints and find the positions I’m working on.  Then at the in person lessons or range, it would take a little more time to find it (without the mirror and tools to constantly check against).  The pro I’m working with has helped me find other ways to check positions so I’m able to do it on course or the range, and he also stressed the importance of taking the changes to the outdoor range as I get more comfortable with them.

It’s been about 3 months now and a ton of work (I’ve literally practiced a minimum of 30 minutes every day for the past 3 months, typically twice a day for 15-30 mins a piece), but it’s starting to settle in a bit and the outdoor range sessions have improved.  Still a bit of focused effort ahead to fully ingrain the changes.

Good luck on your swing changes, I’ll be curious to see how everything is coming along for you!

Nice!

Welcome.

[Guest]

One thing that is important to understand is that you will never get to a point where you have it "ingrained". You aren't going to get to a point where you swing is complete and you can now just focus on the target or something like that. I can't stand playing a round if I can't warm up first because I need to know what swing thought I need for the day. I am a range rat and will beat balls all day working on a technique and I have ended a range session hitting the ball perfect and the next day it's gone. I rarely used the same swing thought from one day to the next. The golf swing is something that will always be a work in progress, and you will improve the most once you understand your tendencies are and how to look at the ball flight and understand what changes to make in your swing. It doesn't happen overnight and takes a lot of practice and using video is a great way as well as having a pro that is knowledgeable that can help you is crucial. 

[SEMI_Duffer]

I'd hoped somebody more qualified than I would address this.  Since they haven't, and I can't let such misinformation go unaddressed, I'll go out on a limb...

On 6/17/2023 at 3:14 AM, Randomgolf99 said:

One thing that is important to understand is that you will never get to a point where you have it "ingrained". You aren't going to get to a point where you swing is complete and you can now just focus on the target or something like that.

Yes, you can and, in fact, I've yet to have seen any instructor say anything other than you must.

You can't be standing over the ball having "swing thoughts."  The conscious mind cannot react quickly enough, much less send the appropriate signals to the appropriate muscles quickly enough to positively affect a swing.  It happens too fast.  There've been studies done to prove it.

It can, however, send enough noise--mixed signals, doubt, loss of focus on the objective, to screw it up.

This is as per every instructor/coach and every book I've read, as well as my own personal experience.

On 6/17/2023 at 3:14 AM, Randomgolf99 said:

I can't stand playing a round if I can't warm up first because I need to know what swing thought I need for the day. I am a range rat and will beat balls all day working on a technique and I have ended a range session hitting the ball perfect and the next day it's gone.

There's a shock.

It is a fact, established by the studies of biomechanics and the experiences of countless instructors and coaches in a variety of sports, that it takes hundreds or thousands of repetitions of a motion (depending upon the individual) to ingrain it.  And, yes: Despite your beliefs to the contrary: It is not only possible to ingrain desired motions, but, necessary.

On 6/17/2023 at 3:14 AM, Randomgolf99 said:

I rarely used the same swing thought from one day to the next.

And you wonder why the thing you learned one day is gone the next?  It never occurred to you You're Doing It Wrong?

On 6/17/2023 at 3:14 AM, Randomgolf99 said:

It doesn't happen overnight and takes a lot of practice ...

No, what it takes is training.  You train.  Then you practice what you've trained.  Then you play what you've trained and practiced.

Training ≠ practice ≠ play.

To be clear: I'm not posting these comments to try to convince you.  It is clear to me your mind is made up and is as unmovable as a rock.  I'm posting this so your comments don't mislead others who may be struggling with ball-striking consistency.

Edited June 19, 2023 by SEMI_Duffer

[saevel25]

On 6/17/2023 at 3:14 AM, Randomgolf99 said:

One thing that is important to understand is that you will never get to a point where you have it "ingrained". You aren't going to get to a point where you swing is complete and you can now just focus on the target or something like that.

Every golfer is going to have a swing feel. At least 1, they have to feel something going on.  Most will have more than 1 swing thought. 

On 6/17/2023 at 3:14 AM, Randomgolf99 said:

I am a range rat and will beat balls all day working on a technique and I have ended a range session hitting the ball perfect and the next day it's gone. I rarely used the same swing thought from one day to the next.

This doesn't seem optimal. 

You want to work on one to two things to get the mechanics in a good area. You need to find the feels that produce the movements you want. Then you need to do those feels a lot. 

It sounds to me like you are just trying to find a feel to hit a shot you want, but you are not actually working on fixing 1 or 2 priority pieces to make your swing consistent. I agree that hitting the range is important, to figure out what lets you hit decent shots.

You are just training yourself to compensate for the swing faults you have, to hit the shot you want, on that day. 

On 6/17/2023 at 3:14 AM, Randomgolf99 said:

It doesn't happen overnight and takes a lot of practice and using video is a great way as well as having a pro that is knowledgeable that can help you is crucial. 

I agree, but it may never happen if you are just hitting balls blindly with no purpose to change the mechanics of the swing. In the end, you are just training compensations and timing, so you hit shots to your intent. Your intent should be to change the swing, not produce a draw or a fade. Sometimes changing the swing means you shank 5 out of 10 shots.

16 minutes ago, SEMI_Duffer said:

You can't be standing over the ball having "swing thoughts."  The conscious mind cannot react quickly enough, much less send the appropriate signals to the appropriate muscles quickly enough to positively affect a swing.  It happens too fast.  There've been studies done to prove it.

Yes, you can. Most PGA Tour players have 1 or more swing thoughts going on. They are trying to hit a swing feel. Which is a swing thought. 

I am not talking about trying to rotate the hands 2 degrees more in the downswing. Swing thoughts are not that. 

21 minutes ago, SEMI_Duffer said:

It is a fact, established by the studies of biomechanics and the experiences of countless instructors and coaches in a variety of sports, that it takes hundreds or thousands of repetitions of a motion (depending upon the individual) to ingrain it.  And, yes: Despite your beliefs to the contrary: It is not only possible to ingrain desired motions, but, necessary.

Yep, it sucks, but the number one factor to learning something is repetition. In the end, you need to do something, have some feedback so your brain knows what is right and wrong, and do that over and over again. 

You need to know what you are doing wrong. You need to know what makes you do something correctly. You need to have feedback that tells you are doing the correct thing over the wrong thing. You need to do that ALOT. Once you have that Comparision, the brain will write new pathways to produce the result you want. 

For me, it just takes me going to the range. Set up my PVC backswing checker, and just hitting shot after shot making sure I make every backswing stop short. I have feedback if I do it wrong. 

 

[iacas]

8 hours ago, SEMI_Duffer said:

You can't be standing over the ball having "swing thoughts."

Yes you can. A swing thought is just a feel. It's not a paragraph.

8 hours ago, SEMI_Duffer said:

The conscious mind cannot react quickly enough, much less send the appropriate signals to the appropriate muscles quickly enough to positively affect a swing.  It happens too fast.  There've been studies done to prove it.

That's not what a "swing thought" is.

[SEMI_Duffer]

Fair enough, @saevel25 and @iacas.

Obviously I had a different impression of what golfers meant when they referred to having "swing thoughts."

 

[Vinsk]

6 minutes ago, SEMI_Duffer said:

Fair enough, @saevel25 and @iacas.

Obviously I had a different impression of what golfers meant when they referred to having "swing thoughts."

 

Yeah. Swing thought doesn’t have to occur during the swing. I still often will think, ‘ keep my trail arm straight’ before I swing. This advice was suggested by Erik a few years ago. Obviously my trail arm doesn’t stay straight but it helps me as a feel to prevent letting it fold like a cheap napkin.

[saevel25]

3 minutes ago, Vinsk said:

Yeah. Swing thought doesn’t have to occur during the swing. I still often will think, ‘ keep my trail arm straight’ before I swing. This advice was suggested by Erik a few years ago. Obviously my trail arm doesn’t stay straight but it helps me as a feel to prevent letting it fold like a cheap napkin.

Yep, feel does not always or hardly ever (maybe the better way to put it) matches what our mind thinks we are doing with the golf club. 

At a certain point, you need to swing the club while looking at the golf ball. You will need to do those movements, and have a sense of the club in space, without actually seeing where it is at. Luckily, we have proprioception. 

 

[SEMI_Duffer]

8 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

Yep, feel does not always or hardly ever (maybe the better way to put it) matches what our mind thinks we are doing with the golf club. 

That certainly was the case with me.  E.g.: I'd swear I was keeping my lead arm straight.  Nope.  Not even close.  Same with club position on the back-swing.  I'd think I wasn't bringing it all that far back, but, it would turn out, I was bringing it back way further than I was feeling I was.

8 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

Luckily, we have proprioception. 

Some more than others.  Mine is poor.  (Which probably explains why I've never achieved more than mediocre performance in any sport I've ever tried.)  Doing crazy numbers of reps in training helps, but, because of my poor proprioception, the "muscle memory" is not real "sticky" for me.  If I want to retain good, consistent swing form, I'm probably going to have to keep doing them as long as I play golf ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[GolfLug]

2 hours ago, SEMI_Duffer said:

Some more than others.  Mine is poor.  (Which probably explains why I've never achieved more than mediocre performance in any sport I've ever tried.)  Doing crazy numbers of reps in training helps, but, because of my poor proprioception, the "muscle memory" is not real "sticky" for me.  If I want to retain good, consistent swing form, I'm probably going to have to keep doing them as long as I play golf ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Can you drive your car without constantly thinking about where the brake/accelerator pedals are? Can you lift a glass of water and put it straight to your lip with your eyes closed? If yes to both answer, then there is nothing wrong with your proprioception. 

Not all things we do repetitively will be committed to on course muscle memory. You have to practice it with an on course frame of reference IF you want to bring it to the course. Sometimes you are committing it the driving range muscle memory.  

In other words you could be be striping it on the range at warm up but then completely butcher the first shot on the 1st tee. A different frame can flood and supersede everything you did 10 minutes ago. 

Build a motion and then build it to a frame (course) where eventually it matters.      

 

[SEMI_Duffer]

18 minutes ago, GolfLug said:

Can you drive your car without constantly thinking about where the brake/accelerator pedals are? Can you lift a glass of water and put it straight to your lip with your eyes closed? If yes to both answer, then there is nothing wrong with your proprioception. 

Of course. But, I've done the motions that involve doing those things hundreds-upon-hundreds of thousands of times.  I didn't say I completely lacked proprioception, but, that mine isn't particularly good.

Heh.  I just searched on "can people have different degrees of proprioception" and it coughed-up this: Proprioception Explained. Interestingly, while I've never been formally diagnosed for it, I've exhibited nearly all the symptoms of Asperger's Syndrome ever since I was a child.

18 minutes ago, GolfLug said:

Build a motion and then build it to a frame (course) where eventually it matters.      

That's precisely what I'm doing: I'm nailing-down motions in swing training.  Then I'll take the motions I've trained to the range.  Then I'll take it to the course.