Should There Be a Local Rule Allowing a Provisional Ball to Be Unplayable Relief?

[DeadMan]

This was brought up in the topic on lost balls, and it's something I've thought about for a while. Here's the scenario - you hit a bad tee shot, then hit a provisional that's perfect. You find the original ball, but it's in a spot where the best option is to take an unplayable with stroke and distance. You cannot, under the rules, take an unplayable and play the provisional. You have to go back to the tee and hit another ball.

Personally, I wish there was a local rule to allow play from the provisional in this situation. I hate when I have to tell people they need to go back to the tee or where their previous shot was in this situation. Most people don't understand why they need to do this under the rules. It's because we shouldn't get to pick between 2 balls under the rules. 

@iacas and @DaveP043 laid out the reason too:

20 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

For an Unplayable Ball, you have 3 options, S&D, Lateral Relief, and Back on the Line.  When you know the result of one of those options (i.e. a Provisional being played as S&D relief), that knowledge may give you a reason to choose which type of relief you want.  A good provisional will be attractive, compared to the unknown results of the other two options.  But if you've hit the Provisional OB, you're more likely to choose BOTL or Lateral.  So the Rules require you to choose among your 3 options without knowing the results of any of them.

12 hours ago, iacas said:

The provisional is abandoned when the ball is found on the course.

Otherwise, a player would have the option of choosing to play his original ball or the provisional. He'd effectively have a choice between two balls in play.

That said, there is a local rule that allows players to pick between balls. That is Model Local Rule B-3:

Quote

If a player does not know whether their ball is in the penalty area [identify location], the player may play a provisional ball under Rule 18.3, which is modified in this way:

In playing the provisional ball, the player may use the stroke-and-distance relief option (see Rule 17.1d(1), the back-on-the-line relief option (see Rule 17.1d(2)) or, if it is a red penalty area, the lateral relief option (see Rule 17.1d(3)). If a dropping zone is available for this penalty area, (see Model Local Rule E-1), the player may also use that relief option.

Once the player has played a provisional ball under this Rule, they may not use any further options under Rule 17.1 in relation to the original ball.

In deciding when that provisional ball becomes the player’s ball in play or if it must or may be abandoned, Rule 18.3c(2) and 18.3c(3) apply except that:

• When Original Ball Is Found in Penalty Area Within Three-Minute Search Time. The player may choose either to:

  • Continue to play the original ball as it lies in the penalty area, in which case the provisional ball must not be played. All strokes with that provisional ball before it was abandoned (including strokes made and any penalty strokes solely from playing that ball) do not count, or

  • Continue to play the provisional ball in which case the original ball must not be played.

• When Original Ball Is Not Found Within Three-Minute Search Time or Is Known or Virtually Certain to Be in Penalty Area. The provisional ball becomes the player’s ball in play.

I would like to see a similar local rule for unplayable balls. I think it should be a local rule, because I don't think it's something that should be available for all levels of competition. High level competitions do not need this option. But my men's club, where 5 hour rounds are the norm, I like the idea of saving some time, and I don't really have a problem with selecting between two balls when the better choice involves 2 extra strokes.

What are everybody else's thoughts here? What am I missing? Does this really matter?

Sorry for the bad thread title, but it's hard to fit this question in a title.

[DaveP043]

57 minutes ago, DeadMan said:

I would like to see a similar local rule for unplayable balls.

I'd note that the MLR you reference requires you to choose one of the Penalty Area relief options before you play your Provisional.  If you do find your ball in the Penalty Area, you may either play it, or play the Provisional, but you may not use any of the other PA relief options instead of the Provisional.  So for your proposed rule, would you NOT allow the player to take the 2 clublength Lateral Relief of Unplayable, or the Back on the Line?  You know, the guy is 6 inches into a briar patch, 2 CL would put him in light rough lying 2, but his only Relief option is the provisional ball lying 3. 

I still don't think its appropriate, but I'm interested in reading the discussion.

[DeadMan]

29 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

I'd note that the MLR you reference requires you to choose one of the Penalty Area relief options before you play your Provisional.  If you do find your ball in the Penalty Area, you may either play it, or play the Provisional, but you may not use any of the other PA relief options instead of the Provisional.  So for your proposed rule, would you NOT allow the player to take the 2 clublength Lateral Relief of Unplayable, or the Back on the Line?  You know, the guy is 6 inches into a briar patch, 2 CL would put him in light rough lying 2, but his only Relief option is the provisional ball lying 3. 

I would have the local rule say that in lieu of stroke and distance relief, the player could play the provisional like you would with a lost ball. 

I see your point, though. I'm not sure I have a good answer to that. I don't think it makes sense to take away another reasonable option when a player has played a provisional. I don't want to discourage a provisional.

[GolfLug]

If the idea is to save time then they don't HAVE to take S&D. They can use the lateral or BOTL. Might cost them a few more strokes till they find playable relief, but they don't have to go back to the tee. 

Sorry the MLR ain't kosher enough, IMO. 😇

[DaveP043]

1 hour ago, GolfLug said:

If the idea is to save time then they don't HAVE to take S&D. They can use the lateral or BOTL. Might cost them a few more strokes till they find playable relief, but they don't have to go back to the tee. 

Sorry the MLR ain't kosher enough, IMO. 😇

There are circumstances when S&D is the only viable relief option for Unplayable.  A couple days ago I was referee at a juniors tournament. and a kid hit one over the green and against the boundary fence, with a heavy hedge just inside the fence.  He played a provisional, but found his original ball.  He couldn't go BOTL with the boundary fence so close, and the hedge made lateral relief completely unappealing, so I drove him back to the fairway to take S&D.  In my experience, though, that situation is pretty rare, so rare that I don't think a Model Local Rule is justified.

[StuM]

I'm not strong on MLRs so forgive my ignorance if any.

For Pace of Play I think a MLR that basically says "Once you play a provisional you forfeit all other relief options and your only choices are to either play your original ball as it lies with no relief or play the provisional with S&D.

Is that possible?

Re-reading the MLR above, I think it says the same thing I said, just with more words.

Edited June 30, 2023 by StuM
Added last sentence.

[GolfLug]

10 minutes ago, StuM said:

I'm not strong on MLRs so forgive my ignorance if any.

For Pace of Play I think a MLR that basically says "Once you play a provisional you forfeit all other relief options and your only choices are to either play your original ball as it lies with no relief or play the provisional with S&D.

Is that possible?

That's essentially what Dave said.

[DaveP043]

23 minutes ago, StuM said:

Re-reading the MLR above, I think it says the same thing I said, just with more words.

The MLR cited says you may hit a Provisional for a ball this might be in a Penalty Area, using any of the PA Relief options available.  Its not necessarily S&D, but that MLR is most commonly used in situations where S&D is the most likely option anyway.  My question to @DeadMan was whether he'd take the same approach with his suggested MLR for Unplayable.

[StuM]

15 minutes ago, GolfLug said:

That's essentially what Dave said.

I realized that after I posted.

[DeadMan]

55 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

In my experience, though, that situation is pretty rare, so rare that I don't think a Model Local Rule is justified.

Yeah, I see it happen approximately once every 3 years. We use that MLR I quoted in my first post on 3 different holes - all holes where you cannot tell from the tee box if your ball is in a penalty area, and the only relief would be to go back to the tee box or close to it. It happens pretty frequently. So it's definitely a different situation.

[Dick Kusleika]

What about modifying E-5 to include unplayable? I've always interpreted E-5 to mean "For two strokes, we'll all pretend you went back to the tee and hit a shot that barely made the fairway." It's probably a little more nuanced than that, but I can't think why that wouldn't work for unplayable.

[DaveP043]

43 minutes ago, Dick Kusleika said:

What about modifying E-5 to include unplayable? I've always interpreted E-5 to mean "For two strokes, we'll all pretend you went back to the tee and hit a shot that barely made the fairway." It's probably a little more nuanced than that, but I can't think why that wouldn't work for unplayable.

But E-5 cannot be used once a player has played a Provisional, and here we're talking about having a Provisional having been played into a somewhat-desirable location.

[Rulesman]

2 hours ago, DaveP043 said:

 A couple days ago I was referee at a juniors tournament. and a kid hit one over the green and against the boundary fence, with a heavy hedge just inside the fence.  He played a provisional, but found his original ball.  He couldn't go BOTL with the boundary fence so close, and the hedge made lateral relief completely unappealing, so I drove him back to the fairway to take S&D.  In my experience, though, that situation is pretty rare, so rare that I don't think a Model Local Rule is justified.

We have such a boundary fence behind a green. If the ball is too close to the fence to make a stroke we have provided two dropping zones (one at each 'corner') with a 1 stroke penalty.

 

Edited June 30, 2023 by Rulesman

[Dick Kusleika]

20 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

But E-5 cannot be used once a player has played a Provisional, and here we're talking about having a Provisional having been played into a somewhat-desirable location.

Dang, I thought I was on to something there.

[Vinsk]

Just figure out what would be the most penal and you’ll have a solution.😁

[sjduffers]

There is already a local rule that allows dropping in the fairway for a lost ball.

But, yes, typically that will not be as good or advantageous as a well hit provisional, so there is no way to justify hitting the provisional as a valid choice for Stroke and Distance relief for the original ball found and unplayable.

Either go back to the tee, or use the local rule that allows you to drop in the fairway with 2 penalty strokes, then go pick up your provisional which cannot be in play the moment you found the original ball. 😜

[iacas]

23 minutes ago, sjduffers said:

There is already a local rule that allows dropping in the fairway for a lost ball.

He's asking about unplayable balls, though.

23 minutes ago, sjduffers said:

Either go back to the tee, or use the local rule that allows you to drop in the fairway with 2 penalty strokes, then go pick up your provisional which cannot be in play the moment you found the original ball. 😜

This doesn't apply to unplayable balls, though. Just lost or OB.

And only when the local rule is in place.

[GolfLug]

2 hours ago, sjduffers said:

use the local rule that allows you to drop in the fairway with 2 penalty strokes, then go pick up your provisional which cannot be in play the moment you found the original ball. 

Then OP wouldn't have a reason to start this thread..😉