Possible Rules Contest Question

[reidsou]

We are running a summer rules contest series. Here's a possible question, inspired by a real situation: 

Individual stroke play tournament. On the second tee you ask another player, "I noticed you used a range finder on the first hole, can you please laser the distance to the hole?" Player responds, "It shows 120 yards, slope adjusted." What do you do now? 

I will post my answer shortly. Curious what others think of the question and answer. 

[iacas]

I'd phrase the question differently, because "what do you do now?" is not the same as "what should you do now?"

I know plenty who wouldn't "do" anything except say "thanks." So, they're not wrong per se.

[StuM]

14 minutes ago, reidsou said:

We are running a summer rules contest series. Here's a possible question, inspired by a real situation: 

Individual stroke play tournament. On the second tee you ask another player, "I noticed you used a range finder on the first hole, can you please laser the distance to the hole?" Player responds, "It shows 120 yards, slope adjusted." What do you do now? 

I will post my answer shortly. Curious what others think of the question and answer. 

I'm not a rule expert but my understanding is "Slope Adjusted" is not allowed in tournament play thus I would consult a rules official.  Not sure if both players would have issues since suddenly I am in posssion of "Forbiden Information" even though I was not using the device and may not have expected that information.  Easy lesson, get your own laser.

Edited July 31, 2023 by StuM

[saevel25]

1st, asking for that advice is fine. Yardage is a public information. 

2nd, the use of a range finder that gives slope adjusted yardage is not legal. 

Quote

Rule 4.3a allows the use of distance-measuring devices so long as the player does not access any information that is prohibited under this Rule (details below). The first breach of this Rule means the player gets a loss of hole penalty in match play or a two-stroke penalty in stroke play. A second breach of Rule 4.3 during the same round results in disqualification. NOTE: A golf course or the Committee in charge of a competition does have the option to prohibit the use of distance-measuring devices by Local Rule.

[snapfade]

40 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

1st, asking for that advice is fine. Yardage is a public information. 

2nd, the use of a range finder that gives slope adjusted yardage is not legal. 

This

[DaveP043]

37 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

1st, asking for that advice is fine. Yardage is a public information. 

2nd, the use of a range finder that gives slope adjusted yardage is not legal. 

So the question is, what do you do?  To protect the field, you MUST ensure that the other player includes a penalty for using the slope feature.  By promptly notifying the other player, you also stop him from using the "illegal" feature a second time, saving him from the DQ penalty.  As for your exposure, you didn't ask for a slope-corrected yardage, so the player didn't break the rule on your behalf, you are not penalized.  

[iacas]

1 minute ago, DaveP043 said:

So the question is, what do you do?  To protect the field, you MUST ensure that the other player includes a penalty for using the slope feature.  By promptly notifying the other player, you also stop him from using the "illegal" feature a second time, saving him from the DQ penalty.  As for your exposure, you didn't ask for a slope-corrected yardage, so the player didn't break the rule on your behalf, you are not penalized.  

The player may have used it on the first hole, though.

[DaveP043]

1 minute ago, iacas said:

The player may have used it on the first hole, though.

True, so he may be DQ already.  Its certainly an uncomfortable situation to be in, bringing a player's infractions to light, leading to his DQ.  But its not something that can be ignored.  

[p1n9183]

If he is cheating.. off course is a tough situation but you can't let it slide. 
It gets more awkward when they say that they didn't knew the rule hoping to get away with it without a penalty. 

Played with a guy that on hole 9 was in a greenside bunker. He proceeded to take out a loose impediment right behind the ball that was obviously in his way. Then he proceeded to ground the club at address and execute his shot. At the time I was playing also with my mom, whom looked at me like if I was seen the same as she was seen. Instantly she told the guy that he wasn't allowed to take out loose impediments in a bunker. The guy looking away said that he didn't knew but that it wasn't a problem because the loose impediment wasn't close to the ball. Told him that it doesn't matter, you cannot touch any loose impediments in a bunker. He just responded "Oh" obviously training to get away with it. That's when I added, that's a penalty shot and also a penalty for grounding the club at address. At little pissed off he looked at his push cart, said that it wasn't a problem because he wasn't going to play the back 9, and walked away.  

[DaveP043]

5 minutes ago, p1n9183 said:

Told him that it doesn't matter, you cannot touch any loose impediments in a bunker.

I hope this was a while ago, for the past 4+ years you've been allowed to move a Loose Impediment anywhere on the golf course.  You're still not allowed to ground your club behind the ball when the ball is in a Bunker.

[saevel25]

55 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

So the question is, what do you do?  To protect the field, you MUST ensure that the other player includes a penalty for using the slope feature.  By promptly notifying the other player, you also stop him from using the "illegal" feature a second time, saving him from the DQ penalty.  As for your exposure, you didn't ask for a slope-corrected yardage, so the player didn't break the rule on your behalf, you are not penalized.  

The first thing is, just have a rules official investigate the matter. Or take it up with the tournament committee.

In this specific case, the person in question saw him use the device on the 1st hole, so he used it at least once. Then he actually used it a 2nd time on the 2nd hole to give the golfer a yardage. If that is the case, if the device has the feature turned on, he's DQ'd. 

I agree, the sooner you let the golfer know, the better it is for them to avoid being DQ'd. 

 

[reidsou]

Yes, as Dave said, you MUST inform the player (see rule 20.1c(2)) that he broke rule 4.3a(1), and this the second instance. (Assuming the slope feature was enabled on the first hole.) Could let him look up the DQ penalty himself, but IMO you must verify that he takes the penalty.  

This answer may be a trigger for those who feel the rules are overly harsh. In my experience violations of rule 4.3a are common and there not many who would witness this and enforce the rule. 

5 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

The first thing is, just have a rules official investigate the matter. Or take it up with the tournament committee.

In this specific case, the person in question saw him use the device on the 1st hole, so he used it at least once. Then he actually used it a 2nd time on the 2nd hole to give the golfer a yardage. If that is the case, if the device has the feature turned on, he's DQ'd. 

I agree, the sooner you let the golfer know, the better it is for them to avoid being DQ'd. 

Assuming you know rule 4.3a, to me this question is more about rule 20.1c(2). That rule says, "If a player knows or believes that another player has breached or might have breached the Rules and that the other player does not recognize or is ignoring this, the player should tell the other player, the player’s marker, a referee or the Committee. This should be done promptly..." [emphasis added]

Unless a rules official is following the group around, IMO that means you have to tell the player immediately. 

[iacas]

1 hour ago, reidsou said:

and this the second instance.

You don’t know that, as you say with the assumption. If the first hole was flat maybe it wasn’t on then. Or maybe they used it for the glass (magnification) only.

1 hour ago, reidsou said:

Unless a rules official is following the group around, IMO that means you have to tell the player immediately. 

Again the wording should be changed. What people would do in the real world is not always what they “must” do under the Rules.

[DaveP043]

3 hours ago, saevel25 said:

The first thing is, just have a rules official investigate the matter. Or take it up with the tournament committee.

In this specific case, the person in question saw him use the device on the 1st hole, so he used it at least once. Then he actually used it a 2nd time on the 2nd hole to give the golfer a yardage. If that is the case, if the device has the feature turned on, he's DQ'd. 

I agree, the sooner you let the golfer know, the better it is for them to avoid being DQ'd. 

I agree, its likely that the Slope was engaged on the first use, but we don't know that for sure.  Whether there's a rules official available or not, you simply MUST bring the infraction to the attention of the player immediately.   While you might not come to immediate agreement on the penalty, at least he'll stop violating that particular rule.  

[Elmer]

1 hour ago, iacas said:

Again the wording should be changed. What people would do in the real world is not always what they “must” do under the Rules.

I think there should rules for competitive golf and then recreational golf. 

3 hours ago, p1n9183 said:

If he is cheating.. off course is a tough situation but you can't let it slide. 
It gets more awkward when they say that they didn't knew the rule hoping to get away with it without a penalty. 

Played with a guy that on hole 9 was in a greenside bunker. He proceeded to take out a loose impediment right behind the ball that was obviously in his way. Then he proceeded to ground the club at address and execute his shot. At the time I was playing also with my mom, whom looked at me like if I was seen the same as she was seen. Instantly she told the guy that he wasn't allowed to take out loose impediments in a bunker. The guy looking away said that he didn't knew but that it wasn't a problem because the loose impediment wasn't close to the ball. Told him that it doesn't matter, you cannot touch any loose impediments in a bunker. He just responded "Oh" obviously training to get away with it. That's when I added, that's a penalty shot and also a penalty for grounding the club at address. At little pissed off he looked at his push cart, said that it wasn't a problem because he wasn't going to play the back 9, and walked away.  

I understand the need to follow the rules when we are all playing for something. 
And I understand the rules are the rules.
But when you pick up a random and you are not playing them for money or bragging rights or beer, why are you badgering them about rules?
I mean your nitpicking made the guy walk off without finishing the hole.
Maybe he was just out working on his game and not keeping score,
This is the worst part of golf to me. 
If my score doesn't affect you, stay out of my game!
 

2 hours ago, reidsou said:

Yes, as Dave said, you MUST inform the player (see rule 20.1c(2)) that he broke rule 4.3a(1), and this the second instance. (Assuming the slope feature was enabled on the first hole.) Could let him look up the DQ penalty himself, but IMO you must verify that he takes the penalty.  

This answer may be a trigger for those who feel the rules are overly harsh. In my experience violations of rule 4.3a are common and there not many who would witness this and enforce the rule. 

Assuming you know rule 4.3a, to me this question is more about rule 20.1c(2). That rule says, "If a player knows or believes that another player has breached or might have breached the Rules and that the other player does not recognize or is ignoring this, the player should tell the other player, the player’s marker, a referee or the Committee. This should be done promptly..." [emphasis added]

Unless a rules official is following the group around, IMO that means you have to tell the player immediately. 

If the player is competing against others, his/her actions will have a direct affect on others.
He/she should be aware of what they can or can not do in a competition. 

[iacas]

21 minutes ago, Elmer said:

I think there should rules for competitive golf and then recreational golf.

I disagree, and encourage all to stay on topic.

[sjduffers]

Can I add that we are all assuming here that the use of rangefinders per se is legal in this tournament (meaning, the local rule allowing it is in effect), aren't we? That is the case in most events, but what if it isn't? Isn't the person asking for a laser reading also asking for advice, I mean, a penalty? 😉 

I agree with everyone about the use of the slope feature of the rangefinder. No can't do.

[reidsou]

2 minutes ago, sjduffers said:

Can I add that we are all assuming here that the use of rangefinders per se is legal in this tournament (meaning, the local rule allowing it is in effect), aren't we? That is the case in most events, but what if it isn't? Isn't the person asking for a laser reading also asking for advice, I mean, a penalty? 😉 

There's no need for a local rule to allow range finders. They are allowed by default since the rules overhaul in 2019. (Now there's an optional local rule to *dis*allow.)

Also distance is public information, not advice. See the definition of advice.