Uphill Versus Downhill Putts?

[saevel25]

According to Bryson, downhill putts are easier than uphill putts. 

Downhill putts are going to roll slower, so green imperfections affect them more. They might have a larger capture speed than uphill putts. I could see, if you have a perfect uphill putt that if you slightly push or pull the putt then it's off the straight putt path and could break away from the hole. If you push an uphill putt, now it is on a similar path if you were just slightly left of the perfect straight putt. Then, it will break right a bit as well. This probably matters more on putts like 10+ FT, or putts on very severe slopes. 

 

[DaveP043]

I hate to say it, but this actually makes some sense to me.  But Bryson largely plays on near-perfect greens, so he can ignore the increased potential for imperfections to change the path of the slower-moving downhill putt.  The other part, how often does anyone have a dead-straight putt, uphill or down?   I think (as usual) Bryson is overthinking this.

[NJpatbee]

I am an old hacker, but I will take an uphill putt anytime!

[StuM]

Just to be clear, ALL putts finish down hill…..when they drop in the cup.

[ChetlovesMer]

I'm not sure how this information would help me.

I don't do the "leave it below the hole" or "leave it above the hole" thing. 
I try my best to leave it as close to the hole as possible. So, even if I did know which was easier it wouldn't matter. I try to leave it "in" the hole. If I misjudge and it ends up below or above I have to hit the putt either way. I can say "Boy, I wish this was uphill" or "Boy, I wish this was downhill." But that wouldn't change the fact that the putt I have is the putt I have. 

[StuM]

To stay on topic, for me the hard part of downhill putts is controlling the speed.

[billchao]

I’m not quite following Bryson’s reasoning here but I prefer downhill putts to uphill putts of the same distance for the same reason that I prefer faster greens over slower greens. The shorter my putting stroke is, the less likely I am going to mess something up.

[iacas]

2 minutes ago, billchao said:

I’m not quite following Bryson’s reasoning here

If you putt a ball 1° offline on an uphill putt, it will be pushed wider. If you putt a ball 1° offline on a downhill putt, it will be "pulled" online more so (i.e. you'll hit it softer and it won't go as far offline).

[Ty_Webb]

2 hours ago, iacas said:

If you putt a ball 1° offline on an uphill putt, it will be pushed wider. If you putt a ball 1° offline on a downhill putt, it will be "pulled" online more so (i.e. you'll hit it softer and it won't go as far offline).

Right - I find it easiest to think about what he's saying as if you hit a ball 90* offline, on a downhill putt, the slope is going to pull the ball towards the hole, while on an uphill putt, it's going to break away from the hole. It's pretty obvious that's how it will work if you're 90* offline. Clearly no one is ever hitting their putts 90* offline, but the concept is still true at 1* offline. 

Having said that, the putt that's 1* offline is only being pulled back towards the hole at 1% of the total pull on the ball (ish), so the impact will be tiny and I doubt it would be enough to make a noticeable difference to the likelihood of holing it. If downhill putts are in fact easier than uphill putts (should ask Stagner), it's more likely because most people's capture speed will be slower on the downhill putt, making the hole play larger. 

I have heard someone say that if a ball bounces due to an imperfection, it's more likely to be deflected off line when it lands if it is rolling uphill than downhill. I'm skeptical that there is any material difference between them. Only more 3 putts on downhill putts than uphill putts.

[iacas]

17 minutes ago, Ty_Webb said:

Having said that, the putt that's 1* offline is only being pulled back towards the hole at 1% of the total pull on the ball (ish), so the impact will be tiny and I doubt it would be enough to make a noticeable difference to the likelihood of holing it.

Not really true… what if it's a fast putt and you hit it 1" at 1° offline, and the slope carries the ball down toward the hole the rest of the way? Pretty sure you'll still make it if you had the right line.

17 minutes ago, Ty_Webb said:

If downhill putts are in fact easier than uphill putts (should ask Stagner)

Or, you know, me. 😛 But that's not really the point: uphill putts tend to have less break, but that's not what Bryson's really talking about.

[Clemsonfan]

When I watched this video yesterday I immediately thought he was negating the effects of gravity which makes speed a dicier proposition on downhill putts.  

Checking my stats on the Stack putting app, my combined strokes gained on downhill putts is .2, and uphill putts and uphill putts is 1.13. Granted most of these sessions have been on slower greens.

Like @iacas wrote, since uphill putts break less, I find less break to be easier to make, and my data seems to prove that- at least for me.

I tried to edit my post, but got kicked out. My make rate on downhill putts is 52% in the Stack app, and 48% on uphill putts. So, maybe Bryson is right…

[Ty_Webb]

9 hours ago, iacas said:

Or, you know, me. 😛 But that's not really the point: uphill putts tend to have less break, but that's not what Bryson's really talking about.

Okay I'll ask you then - for 8 foot putts that are straight, but 2-3* uphill/downhill, what's the relative make rate of those putts uphill vs downhill on the PGA Tour?

Uphill putts having less break should make them easier to hole for the same reason that downhill putts are harder to get close to the hole. On the uphill putt, if you think the line is a hole out, but you're off on the slope by 10%, you're missing by a bit over half an inch I think. If you have the same slope and the downhill putt is 3 holes out (since downhill has more break) and you're off by the same percentage, now you're missing by nearly two inches. The amount you're missing by is three times as much in my very simplified example. I don't know how much it actually affects it - I suspect it depends on lots of variables, but the math should still work if you change the multiple.

[iacas]

3° is over 5% slope. Thus the make rate uphill or downhill is about 0% because that never happens on the PGA Tour.

😜

I’ll answer the gist of your question later if I have a minute. You’re still off base about the reads.

Uphill still magnifies errors and downhill minifies them because as I posted in the part above that you ignored, downhill putts aren’t hit as hard.

[billchao]

3 hours ago, Clemsonfan said:

When I watched this video yesterday I immediately thought he was negating the effects of gravity which makes speed a dicier proposition on downhill putts.

Actually his point was the opposite, as @iacas and @Ty_Webb clarified for me. Downhill putts are easier to make because of gravity. The ball is rolling slower so the hole is effectively larger due to capture speed and the slope pulls it towards the hole instead of away from it. Hitting the perfect line is less of a factor.

[Clemsonfan]

4 minutes ago, billchao said:

Actually his point was the opposite, as @iacas and @Ty_Webb clarified for me. Downhill putts are easier to make because of gravity. The ball is rolling slower so the hole is effectively larger due to capture speed and the slope pulls it towards the hole instead of away from it. Hitting the perfect line is less of a factor.

Perhaps you didn’t read my full post?I tried to edit with my actual data. I make more downhill putts than uphill. Because of gravity I imagine I also 3-putt more on downhill putts because when I miss due to too much speed, those errors are exacerbated.

[billchao]

2 minutes ago, Clemsonfan said:

Perhaps you didn’t read my full post?I tried to edit with my actual data. I make more downhill putts than uphill. 

I did. I was simply expanding on a statement you made.

[Ty_Webb]

58 minutes ago, billchao said:

Actually his point was the opposite, as @iacas and @Ty_Webb clarified for me. Downhill putts are easier to make because of gravity. The ball is rolling slower so the hole is effectively larger due to capture speed and the slope pulls it towards the hole instead of away from it. Hitting the perfect line is less of a factor.

In the video that I saw with Bryson talking about this (on his youtube channel playing with Garrett) he was not talking about capture speed. It was purely suggesting that on a dead straight putt, if you pull it or push it on a downhill putt, the ball is pulled towards the hole, while on an uphill putt it is pulled away from the hole.

1 hour ago, iacas said:

3° is over 5% slope. Thus the make rate uphill or downhill is about 0% because that never happens on the PGA Tour.

😜

I’ll answer the gist of your question later if I have a minute. You’re still off base about the reads.

Uphill still magnifies errors and downhill minifies them because as I posted in the part above that you ignored, downhill putts aren’t hit as hard.

Right - I meant % not degrees - sorry. 

That might very well be true about uphill magnifying errors because you're hitting them harder, but I don't think that's what Bryson said. I was talking about what he said.

[billchao]

20 minutes ago, Ty_Webb said:

In the video that I saw with Bryson talking about this (on his youtube channel playing with Garrett) he was not talking about capture speed. It was purely suggesting that on a dead straight putt, if you pull it or push it on a downhill putt, the ball is pulled towards the hole, while on an uphill putt it is pulled away from the hole.

It makes sense. While capture speed is related to holing a putt, it can also be independent in this context since you can hit an uphill putt and downhill putt with the same capture speed.

I only mentioned it because :checks notes: you did 😃