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# The Backswing Ends at ~P2

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Give this video a quick watch with the title of this topic in mind:

There's a video out there (if you can find it, PLEASE post it here, I'll owe you!) where Martin Borgmeier or Kyle Berkshire or some long drive guy says that his backswing is over around A2/P2… and I've used that with some students as well, typically in two ways:

• To get them to speed up the start of the backswing. Put a bunch of energy into the swing early, then let it coast out late. Fast early in both the backswing and the downswing.
• To shorten the swing and make them realize how little the wrists and arms do in a golf swing. You can make a backswing with an almost completely limp wrists and arms, and if you fling the club hard enough in the backswing with your chest/pivot, it'll just "flip up" at the end.

I love this kind of stuff, and I understand it (I don't think that's saying much as it's not that complex), but a lot of people wouldn't think that you're actually applying torque in the downswing direction at almost every point from P2 onward.

This video also shows why calculating the area under a curve was relevant — something my high school calculus teacher really struggled to answer. When the area under the negative curve equals the area under the positive curve… the club changes direction. Simple. Applicable. But that's not really anything that helps you play better golf. 😄

Anyway, watch the video. I think it's good.

And then discuss: did you learn anything? What? Is anything confusing, or anything that you wanted to talk about?

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Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
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• iacas changed the title to The Backswing Ends at ~P2
• Moderator

Very interesting. I understand the concept. In this swing the golfer began slowing down the backswing near P2 to prepare for the transition to the downswing. If he did a full swing, would that point change maybe a little higher? I’m thinking it’s similar to cracking a whip or how float loading was described.

Scott

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2 hours ago, boogielicious said:

Very interesting. I understand the concept. In this swing the golfer began slowing down the backswing near P2 to prepare for the transition to the downswing. If he did a full swing, would that point change maybe a little higher? I’m thinking it’s similar to cracking a whip or how float loading was described.

Maybe a tiny bit.

You probably start slowing down around the same point, too. The slower the backswing, the later you begin slowing it down… hence the long drive guy saying his backswing was over before he got to 2.

• 1

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instruction Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins
Golf Digest "Best Young Teachers in America" 2016-17 & "Best in State" 2017-20 • WNY Section PGA Teacher of the Year 2019

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15 hours ago, iacas said:

This video also shows why calculating the area under a curve was relevant — something my high school calculus teacher really struggled to answer. When the area under the negative curve equals the area under the positive curve… the club changes direction. Simple. Applicable. But that's not really anything that helps you play better golf. 😄

Sorry, I am not doing any integration of that curve 😉

15 hours ago, iacas said:

And then discuss: did you learn anything? What? Is anything confusing, or anything that you wanted to talk about?

Makes sense. The biggest issue is translating that to real world feels for the golf swing. It's good to know the math lines up. So, good validation of what is going on.

Matt Dougherty, P.E.
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Obviously when we're rehearsing the golf swing, and going really slow, we're continually applying force in the backswing direction, because gravity actually matters then to keep forcing it down.

But, when you're swinging, you generally only apply force in the backswing direction (BD) until ~A2/P2… after which it's in the downswing direction (DD). First to slow the club down, then to actually make a downswing.

Let the club "flip up" a bit, and see what you think.

It speaks to this, too:

• 1

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instruction Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins
Golf Digest "Best Young Teachers in America" 2016-17 & "Best in State" 2017-20 • WNY Section PGA Teacher of the Year 2019

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(edited)

In my swing thread two of my recent posts mention the feeling of a 'half swing's with the extender. It seems at least in my case the 'collapse' at the top must indicate 'loading' to my unconscious feels that I can only describe as an addiction.

Could it be that the downswing loads the trail joints dynamically? I have felt my right wrist and elbow bend coming into impact when I 'stop' the backswing at P2.

Edited by GolfLug

Vishal S.

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4 hours ago, GolfLug said:

Could it be that the downswing loads the trail joints dynamically?

I don't know what you're asking exactly.

I will only say this for now until I get clarification: except for maybe P4 to P5, the joints that load in the backswing unload in the downswing.

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instruction Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins
Golf Digest "Best Young Teachers in America" 2016-17 & "Best in State" 2017-20 • WNY Section PGA Teacher of the Year 2019

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9 minutes ago, iacas said:

I don't know what you're asking exactly.

I will only say this for now until I get clarification: except for maybe P4 to P5, the joints that load in the backswing unload in the downswing.

I will try to take a vid.

Vishal S.

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On 1/16/2024 at 5:30 PM, iacas said:

There's a video out there (if you can find it, PLEASE post it here, I'll owe you!) where Martin Borgmeier or Kyle Berkshire or some long drive guy says that his backswing is over around A2/P2…

Is this the video you're referring to? TLDR, the video is about creating a large moment arm for long drives by widening the differential between the center of pressure and the center of mass. Part of creating that differential is feeling like the backswing ends around P/A2. With a larger moment arm and a lot of force, you can create a lot of torque, and ultimately clubhead speed.

On 1/16/2024 at 5:30 PM, iacas said:

And then discuss: did you learn anything? What? Is anything confusing, or anything that you wanted to talk about?

For me it's just nice to see more data backing up this idea the backswing basically ends at 2, like we see in pressure mats and 3D, except here the measurement is torque and angular velocity.

Constantine

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4 minutes ago, JetFan1983 said:

Is this the video you're referring to?

No.

The video I'm talking about is one where he says "my backswing is over here" and he demonstrates that he swings really fast to about P2 and then he's done moving the club in that direction, basically.

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instruction Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins
Golf Digest "Best Young Teachers in America" 2016-17 & "Best in State" 2017-20 • WNY Section PGA Teacher of the Year 2019

Check Out: New Topics | TST Blog | Golf Terms | Instructional Content | Analyzr | LSW | Instructional Droplets

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1 minute ago, iacas said:

No.

The video I'm talking about is one where he says "my backswing is over here" and he demonstrates that he swings really fast to about P2 and then he's done moving the club in that direction, basically.

Constantine

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(edited)

It sounds like Drew Cooper.

at ~7:20

Edited by iacas
Starts at 440s now.
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1 hour ago, Sp4zRX said:

It sounds like Drew Cooper.

Thanks. I think that was exactly it.

I edited your post to add the 7m20s timestamp so the video starts there.

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Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instruction Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins
Golf Digest "Best Young Teachers in America" 2016-17 & "Best in State" 2017-20 • WNY Section PGA Teacher of the Year 2019

Check Out: New Topics | TST Blog | Golf Terms | Instructional Content | Analyzr | LSW | Instructional Droplets

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12 minutes ago, iacas said:

Thanks. I think that was exactly it.

There is another video, which I can’t find, where he explicitly says around P2 he feels like his backswing is done and is already feeling like he is starting down. It’s essentially the same thing as what he is explaining in the video I linked above.

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This was really helpful. Every time I wanted to swing faster on the backswing to gain more speed I used to swing fast with my hands all the way to the top, creating a lot of caos at transition.

After this video I started to move the hands faster but only to p2 or at most p3. Transition was smoother and because of that gained more consistent speed.

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I have been practicing a bit on this inside. It is different in trying to rip the club back and have it felt like the clubhead speed peeks at A2-ish. It's a lot of braking.

Matt Dougherty, P.E.
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What's in My Bag
Driver;  0311 Gen 5,  3-Wood:
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Interesting. My brother got me an orange whip for christmas which I've really been loving. Partially because it's kinda been making me feel this! Like you need long and slow down of the club going back and transition to be able to whip it through and not have your hands get *way* out in front of the "club head".

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Matt

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• 4 months later...
On 1/16/2024 at 5:30 PM, iacas said:

Give this video a quick watch with the title of this topic in mind:

There's a video out there (if you can find it, PLEASE post it here, I'll owe you!) where Martin Borgmeier or Kyle Berkshire or some long drive guy says that his backswing is over around A2/P2… and I've used that with some students as well, typically in two ways:

• To get them to speed up the start of the backswing. Put a bunch of energy into the swing early, then let it coast out late. Fast early in both the backswing and the downswing.
• To shorten the swing and make them realize how little the wrists and arms do in a golf swing. You can make a backswing with an almost completely limp wrists and arms, and if you fling the club hard enough in the backswing with your chest/pivot, it'll just "flip up" at the end.

I love this kind of stuff, and I understand it (I don't think that's saying much as it's not that complex), but a lot of people wouldn't think that you're actually applying torque in the downswing direction at almost every point from P2 onward.

This video also shows why calculating the area under a curve was relevant — something my high school calculus teacher really struggled to answer. When the area under the negative curve equals the area under the positive curve… the club changes direction. Simple. Applicable. But that's not really anything that helps you play better golf. 😄

Anyway, watch the video. I think it's good.

And then discuss: did you learn anything? What? Is anything confusing, or anything that you wanted to talk about?

Wondering if this sort of explains the idea that the first I think few inches of the backswing are the most important part and set up the rest of the swing? I think Nicklaus said that, and maybe Butch Harmon.

Also doesn't this (sort of) explain Moe Normans reasoning behind why he put the club way back at address (I could be reaching here), but genuinely curious.

Hope I don't sound stupid lol.

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