Jump to content
Check out the Spin Axis Podcast! ×

Recommended Posts

  • Moderator
Posted
8 hours ago, GolfLug said:

And do none of you agree that this has somewhat to do about the business angle to it? Pandering to the talent.

I’m pretty sure most of us agree on this point as it’s been mentioned in the thread that this likely only happened because the incident involved Jordan Spieth as opposed to some random journeyman.

  • Thumbs Up 1

Bill

“By three methods we may learn wisdom: First, by reflection, which is noblest; Second, by imitation, which is easiest; and third by experience, which is the bitterest.” - Confucius

My Swing Thread

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

  • Administrator
Posted
17 minutes ago, billchao said:

I’m pretty sure most of us agree on this point as it’s been mentioned in the thread that this likely only happened because the incident involved Jordan Spieth as opposed to some random journeyman.

Right, and this is actually a disincentive to some of us.

Think about how the backlash was when Tiger was "just" given a two-stroke penalty the next morning at the Masters when I was involved… 😉  Many people thought he should WD, or effectively DQ himself, for the incident.

I can imagine a situation where a player is known to have been called back after signing for a 3 when they made a 4 and getting backlash for it. It may actually not work out as they think. And what if the player is shown preferential treatment in the "timing" of things: they come back at 18:00 but the PGA Tour fudges things to say "no, it was only 14 minutes later…?"

Rules are best, IMO, when they're black and white. It's just golf — we're not sending someone to prison or to be executed. We don't need to leave a lot of wiggle room. KISS: when you've turned your card in and crossed the line they put on the ground that denotes the scoring area, you're done. It's turned in.

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instruction Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins
Golf Digest "Best Young Teachers in America" 2016-17 & "Best in State" 2017-20 • WNY Section PGA Teacher of the Year 2019 :edel: :true_linkswear:

Check Out: New Topics | TST Blog | Golf Terms | Instructional Content | Analyzr | LSW | Instructional Droplets

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Posted
29 minutes ago, billchao said:

I’m pretty sure most of us agree on this point as it’s been mentioned in the thread that this likely only happened because the incident involved Jordan Spieth as opposed to some random journeyman.

Brother! yes, not lost on me either. Will y'all give me a bit more credit? 😊. That's exactly what I mean by 'pandering to the talent (talent = the likes of Jordan)'. Others/journeyman = chopped liver. Special/preferential treatment. Believe me when I say I know a thing or two about it having being on the receiving side of it a few times. 

11 minutes ago, iacas said:

Right, and this is actually a disincentive to some of us.

Think about how the backlash was when Tiger was "just" given a two-stroke penalty the next morning at the Masters when I was involved… 😉  Many people thought he should WD, or effectively DQ himself, for the incident.

I can imagine a situation where a player is known to have been called back after signing for a 3 when they made a 4 and getting backlash for it. It may actually not work out as they think. And what if the player is shown preferential treatment in the "timing" of things: they come back at 18:00 but the PGA Tour fudges things to say "no, it was only 14 minutes later…?"

Rules are best, IMO, when they're black and white. It's just golf — we're not sending someone to prison or to be executed. We don't need to leave a lot of wiggle room. KISS: when you've turned your card in and crossed the line they put on the ground that denotes the scoring area, you're done. It's turned in.

I'm not disagreeing with any of what you are stating. And not being argumentative, but my guess is that they (PGAT/RA/USGA collectively ) have considered all the scenarios/complications that can transpire and how this looks (preferential treatment wise) as well as anyone on this thread. Maybe I'm giving them too much credit. We will see.   

Vishal S.

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

  • Administrator
Posted
16 minutes ago, GolfLug said:

I'm not disagreeing with any of what you are stating. And not being argumentative, but my guess is that they (PGAT/RA/USGA collectively ) have considered all the scenarios/complications that can transpire and how this looks (preferential treatment wise) as well as anyone on this thread. Maybe I'm giving them too much credit. We will see.   

We aren't saying they didn't do that. At least I'm not. I'm saying it might backfire, and it's unnecessarily complicated and reeks of stupidity when the previous rule was pretty simple, and works 99.999% of the time.

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instruction Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins
Golf Digest "Best Young Teachers in America" 2016-17 & "Best in State" 2017-20 • WNY Section PGA Teacher of the Year 2019 :edel: :true_linkswear:

Check Out: New Topics | TST Blog | Golf Terms | Instructional Content | Analyzr | LSW | Instructional Droplets

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

  • Moderator
Posted
38 minutes ago, GolfLug said:

Brother! yes, not lost on me either. Will y'all give me a bit more credit? 😊. That's exactly what I mean by 'pandering to the talent (talent = the likes of Jordan)'. Others/journeyman = chopped liver. Special/preferential treatment. Believe me when I say I know a thing or two about it having being on the receiving side of it a few times. 

I’m not discrediting you at all, it just seemed from the way you wrote the part that I quoted that you seem to think you were in the minority on that point. I believe most of us here feel the same way, that it was a reaction to an incident involving a high profile player, and only because it was a high profile player.

Bill

“By three methods we may learn wisdom: First, by reflection, which is noblest; Second, by imitation, which is easiest; and third by experience, which is the bitterest.” - Confucius

My Swing Thread

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Posted
1 hour ago, billchao said:

I’m not discrediting you at all, it just seemed from the way you wrote the part that I quoted that you seem to think you were in the minority on that point. I believe most of us here feel the same way, that it was a reaction to an incident involving a high profile player, and only because it was a high profile player.

 

22 hours ago, GolfLug said:

 All good. Jordan's incidence might have been a high profile conduit. It falls within USGA/RA rules. I agree this is high profile pandering but what's the problem? If this is about getting the scoring information correct at the end of the day then I am okay. They have resources and a billion reasons ($$$) to make this work so let them have it. 

You've got me fooled then. See my post above. Haven't denied it from the beginning. I'm not in the minority on that point. 

Vishal S.

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

  • Moderator
Posted
27 minutes ago, GolfLug said:

 

You've got me fooled then. See my post above. Haven't denied it from the beginning. I'm not in the minority on that point. 

Uh okay… I don’t even understand what you’re arguing about at this point, but I’m out.

Bill

“By three methods we may learn wisdom: First, by reflection, which is noblest; Second, by imitation, which is easiest; and third by experience, which is the bitterest.” - Confucius

My Swing Thread

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, billchao said:

Uh okay… I don’t even understand what you’re arguing about at this point, but I’m out.

Nothing. Just defending what I didn't say.

 

Edited by GolfLug

Vishal S.

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Posted
2 hours ago, iacas said:

We aren't saying they didn't do that. At least I'm not. I'm saying it might backfire, and it's unnecessarily complicated and reeks of stupidity when the previous rule was pretty simple, and works 99.999% of the time.

Pretty much my stance on this. 

I do not know how many times a player gets DQ'd for this. I think it is one of the rarest penalties called. To change it to a convoluted process because some loud, and wrong, social media personalities made click-bait worthy headlines out of this is sad. 

99.99999999% of the time Jordan sits down and goes through the process of validating hole by hole. I understand that he was suffering from a stomach issue and had to evac to a bathroom. We have all been there, you are in a store, and you need to run to the restroom. You disregard everything to make it to that toilet. 

Just allow them to go use the restroom before signing a card. Is there any benefit to delaying the signing and returning of the card immediately after a round? Put a porta-john right next to the signing tent/building. There you go, you can use the restroom before signing the card. Maybe the card needs to be passed along to a scoring official first so you can't carry it with you. That way there wouldn't be some nefarious ideas. There are so many easier ways to fix this without having this convoluted process. 

Like, off the top of my head, here are a list of reasons someone could want to delay signing a card. 

1. Restroom (as we found out)
2. A family/friend intercepts them and tells them about something that happened (emergency).
3. Medical issue (like heat stroke or what not). 

I mean, that is it. Any other situation, if the golfer actually signs for an incorrect score, is because they messed up during the review of the cards before signing it. If they messed up that process then tough, DQ. 

Matt Dougherty, P.E.
 fasdfa dfdsaf 

What's in My Bag
Driver; :pxg: 0311 Gen 5,  3-Wood: 
:titleist: 917h3 ,  Hybrid:  :titleist: 915 2-Hybrid,  Irons: Sub 70 TAIII Fordged
Wedges: :edel: (52, 56, 60),  Putter: :edel:,  Ball: :snell: MTB,  Shoe: :true_linkswear:,  Rangfinder: :leupold:
Bag: :ping:

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Posted
6 minutes ago, billchao said:

 but I’m out.

Yeah, me too.

Vishal S.

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

  • Administrator
Posted
4 hours ago, saevel25 said:

Just allow them to go use the restroom before signing a card.

They don't need to change that. There's no rule that you have to go to scoring within 60 seconds of finishing your round, only that you have to get there promptly. HIs marker would have hung around for five or six minutes while Jordan dropped the kids off at the pool.

4 hours ago, GolfLug said:

Yeah, me too.

We legit don't know what you were reading or saying at certain points, man. We all understand WHY they did it, some of us just don't think it was necessary.

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instruction Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins
Golf Digest "Best Young Teachers in America" 2016-17 & "Best in State" 2017-20 • WNY Section PGA Teacher of the Year 2019 :edel: :true_linkswear:

Check Out: New Topics | TST Blog | Golf Terms | Instructional Content | Analyzr | LSW | Instructional Droplets

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Posted
33 minutes ago, iacas said:

We legit don't know what you were reading or saying at certain points, man. 

Things can come off differently than intended on the internet. I can understand that.  No worries.

1 hour ago, iacas said:

We all understand WHY they did it

Seems like that's what I missed. 😊

Vishal S.

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Posted
On 6/20/2024 at 8:40 AM, GolfLug said:

Maybe I'm giving them too much credit. 

Welp, it seems I have. I talked to some folks much more knowledgeable than me and read through the posts thus far and let's just say I missed a few critical points and was a bit hasty and off the mark in posting rebuttals. Like some of you, the onset mark of 15 minutes and control of expiration remain ambiguous and opens things for favoritism, etc. 

What is clear though, is that this does ruin simplicity of what was and doesn't seem like to resolve the 'problem' anyway.  My bad on my original take.

20 hours ago, iacas said:

some of us just don't think it was necessary.

Yes. If y'all giving out mulligans, I'll take one. 

  • Thumbs Up 1

Vishal S.

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

  • Moderator
Posted
1 hour ago, GolfLug said:

If y'all giving out mulligans, I'll take one.

Mulligans cost a beer :beer:

  • Funny 3

Bill

“By three methods we may learn wisdom: First, by reflection, which is noblest; Second, by imitation, which is easiest; and third by experience, which is the bitterest.” - Confucius

My Swing Thread

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Posted
10 minutes ago, billchao said:

Mulligans cost a beer :beer:

Done! 

Vishal S.

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Posted
31 minutes ago, billchao said:

Mulligans cost a beer :beer:

I knew there was an easier way to get my handicap down!

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

  • Moderator
Posted
5 hours ago, GolfLug said:

Done! 

Modelo? 😁

Scott

Titleist, Edel, Scotty Cameron Putter, Snell - AimPoint - Evolvr - MirrorVision

My Swing Thread

boogielicious - Adjective describing the perfect surf wave

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Posted
14 minutes ago, boogielicious said:

Modelo? 😁

Ya know it. Love it when someone remembers..:beer:

  • Thumbs Up 1

Vishal S.

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now


  • Want to join this community?

    We'd love to have you!

    Sign Up
  • TST Partners

    PlayBetter
    Golfer's Journal
    ShotScope
    The Stack System
    FitForGolf
    FlightScope Mevo
    Direct: Mevo, Mevo+, and Pro Package.

    Coupon Codes (save 10-20%): "IACAS" for Mevo/Stack/FitForGolf, "IACASPLUS" for Mevo+/Pro Package, and "THESANDTRAP" for ShotScope. 15% off TourStriker (no code).
  • Posts

    • Please see this topic for updated information:
    • Please see this topic for updated information:
    • When you've been teaching golf as long as I have, you're going to find that you can teach some things better than you previously had, and you're probably going to find some things that you taught incorrectly. I don't see that as a bad thing — what would be worse is refusing to adapt and grow given new information. I've always said that my goal with my instruction isn't to be right, but it's to get things right. To that end, I'm about five years late in issuing a public proclamation on something… When I first got my GEARS system, I immediately looked at the golf swings of the dozens and dozens of Tour players for which I suddenly had full 3D data. I created a huge spreadsheet showing how their bodies moved, how the club moved, at various points in the swing. I mapped knee and elbow angles, hand speeds, shoulder turns and pelvis turns… etc. I re-considered what I thought I knew about the golf swing as performed by the best players. One of those things dated back to the earliest days: that you extend (I never taught "straighten" and would avoid using that word unless in the context of saying "don't fully straighten") the trail knee/leg in the backswing. I was mislead by 2D photos from less-than-ideal camera angles — the trail leg rotates a bit during the backswing, and so when observing trail knee flex should also use a camera that moves to stay perpendicular to the plane of the ankle/knee/hip joint. We have at least two topics here on this (here and here; both of which I'll be updating after publishing this) where @mvmac and I advise golfers to extend the trail knee. Learning that this was not right is one of the reasons I'm glad to have a 3D system, as most golfers generally preserve the trail knee flex throughout the backswing. Data Here's a video showing an iron and a driver of someone who has won the career slam: Here's what the graph of his right knee flex looks like. The solid lines I've positioned at the top of the backswing (GEARS aligns both swings at impact, the dashed line). Address is to the right, of course, and the graph shows knee flex from the two swings above. The data (17.56° and 23.20°) shows where this player is in both swings (orange being the yellow iron swing, pink the blue driver swing). You can see that this golfer extends his trail knee 2-3°… before bending it even more than that through the late backswing and early downswing. Months ago I created a quick Instagram video showing the trail knee flex in the backswing of several players (see the top for the larger number): Erik J. Barzeski (@iacas) • Instagram reel GEARS shares expert advice on golf swing technique, focusing on the critical backswing phase. Tour winners and major champions reveal the key to a precise and powerful swing, highlighting the importance of... Here are a few more graphs. Two LIV players and major champions: Two PGA Tour winners: Two women's #1 ranked players: Two more PGA Tour winners (one a major champ): Two former #1s, the left one being a woman, the right a man, with a driver: Two more PGA Tour players: You'll notice a trend: they almost all maintain roughly the same flex throughout their backswing and downswing. The Issues with Extending the Trail Knee You can play good golf extending (again, not "straightening") the trail knee. Some Tour players do. But, as with many things, if 95 out of 100 Tour players do it, you're most likely better off doing similarly to what they do. So, what are the issues with extending the trail knee in the backswing? To list a few: Pelvic Depth and Rotation Quality Suffers When the trail knee extends, the trail leg often acts like an axle on the backswing, with the pelvis rotating around the leg and the trail hip joint. This prevents the trail side from gaining depth, as is needed to keep the pelvis center from thrusting toward the ball. Most of the "early extension" (thrust) that I see occurs during the backswing. Encourages Early Extension (Thrust) Patterns When you've thrust and turned around the trail hip joint in the backswing, you often thrust a bit more in the downswing as the direction your pelvis is oriented is forward and "out" (to the right for a righty). Your trail leg can abduct to push you forward, but "forward" when your pelvis is turned like that is in the "thrust" direction. Additionally, the trail knee "breaking" again at the start of the downswing often jumps the trail hip out toward the ball a bit too much or too quickly. While the trail hip does move in that direction, if it's too fast or too much, it can prevent the lead side hip from getting "back" at the right rate, or at a rate commensurate with the trail hip to keep the pelvis center from thrusting. Disrupts the Pressure Shift/Transition When the trail leg extends too much, it often can't "push" forward normally. The forward push begins much earlier than forward motion begins — pushing forward begins as early as about P1.5 to P2 in the swings of most good golfers. It can push forward by abducting, again, but that's a weaker movement that shoves the pelvis forward (toward the target) and turns it more than it generally should (see the next point). Limits Internal Rotation of the Trail Hip Internal rotation of the trail hip is a sort of "limiter" on the backswing. I have seen many golfers on GEARS whose trail knee extends, whose pelvis shifts forward (toward the target), and who turn over 50°, 60°, and rarely but not never, over 70° in the backswing. If you turn 60° in the backswing, it's going to be almost impossible to get "open enough" in the downswing to arrive at a good impact position. Swaying/Lateral Motion Occasionally a golfer who extends the trail knee too much will shift back too far, but more often the issue is that the golfer will shift forward too early in the backswing (sometimes even immediately to begin the backswing), leaving them "stuck forward" to begin the downswing. They'll push forward, stop, and have to restart around P4, disrupting the smooth sequence often seen in the game's best players. Other Bits… Reduces ground reaction force potential, compromises spine inclination and posture, makes transition sequencing harder, increases stress on the trail knee and lower back… In short… It's not athletic. We don't do many athletic things with "straight" or very extended legs (unless it's the end of the action, like a jump or a big push off like a step in a running motion).
    • Day 135 12-25 Wide backswing to wide downswing drill. Recorder and used mirror. 
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

Welcome to TST! Signing up is free, and you'll see fewer ads and can talk with fellow golf enthusiasts! By using TST, you agree to our Terms of Use, our Privacy Policy, and our Guidelines.