What Does the Average Weekend Golfer Shoot?

[Slice of Life]

Originally Posted by Jeremie Boop

Kind of strange that the average score for a male golfer is 97 but the average handicap is 15.... That's not exactly what you'd expect to see.

Just that so few people actually keep a handicap. If every golfer were forced to, the average handicap would be closer to 30...

[kw purp]

Nonsense. What's hard to buy about this? Almost every single high handicapper would score better if he played only a pair of 7-irons on his first two shots on par-4s or would use a 5W/hybrid, followed by a 7-iron and use a 7-iron to wedge for the third shot on par-5s. If I played ultra-careful, completely uneventful golf, I'm sure it would take 3-5 strokes off my average round. A stroke or two a round can make the difference between subsistence living and being a millionaire on the pro tour, but for a high handicapper, the benefit in scoring lower wouldn't be worth the cost in occasional really satisfying shots. I'd save 10 strokes on some rounds if I left my driver and 3W at home, but it's worth the cost to me to be able to have a round when I've got my swing working and be able to draw a drive 260+ yards down the fairway a few times a round. There's a course I play on vacation that has a signature hole, a 285 yard par-4 with at least a 100' vertical elevation on the tee box. I don't remember the 6-irons I hit to the fairway or the many strokes I've lost slicing or hooking my 3W into the woods. I do remember the 3W I hit that bounced off and over the green and the other one that landed a few feet short of it that I chipped to tap-in distance. I don't play golf to methodically move a small spherical object around an outdoor setting in the fewest possible numbers of physical contacts with the face of my elongated playing instrument . I suspect that a lot of other people feel the same way.

Because I am not buying that playing that way would lead to lower scores. I would bet you would still screw up even with hitting those lesser clubs.

On short par 4's I tee off with irons. But if I tee'd off with a hybrid on a par 5 that is gonna make that hole a lot harder for me. I do not feel I am that much more accurate with my hybrid off the tee than my driver to make the loss of 50 yards worthwhile.

You might hit slightly more fairways playing the way you described, but the length of your second and third shots would require added precision that a 20 plus HCP player doesnt have anyway.

The only way to lower your handicap is to improve your skill level. Sure you might think lets make the smart play and tee off with a 4 iron on this hole, but if you cant consistently hit a strong contact 4 iron down the middle it's not going to work out for you anyway.

[Dave2512]

My experience is the longer the club the more severe the mishits can be. I've never seen anyone slice a 7i into an adjacent fairway or worse. I don't think the point is playing shorter clubs eliminates mistakes just that the penalty is less severe. Especially on shorter holes where driver is excessive anyway. Besides most of the guys I see hitting their driver all over the course only hit it longer than their long-mid irons a small percentage of the time, ball travels further left or right than towards the hole. The decision to continually take the chance with the driver is based on the one or two good hits they get all day. The reality is they are playing that way unintentionally with greater consequences.

[14ledo81]

Because I am not buying that playing that way would lead to lower scores. I would bet you would still screw up even with hitting those lesser clubs.

On short par 4's I tee off with irons. But if I tee'd off with a hybrid on a par 5 that is gonna make that hole a lot harder for me. I do not feel I am that much more accurate with my hybrid off the tee than my driver to make the loss of 50 yards worthwhile.

You might hit slightly more fairways playing the way you described, but the length of your second and third shots would require added precision that a 20 plus HCP player doesnt have anyway.

The only way to lower your handicap is to improve your skill level. Sure you might think lets make the smart play and tee off with a 4 iron on this hole, but if you cant consistently hit a strong contact 4 iron down the middle it's not going to work out for you anyway.

Unless you include mental skill (course management), this is not a true statement.  I do feel that there would be a ceiling to how good you could get without improving your ball striking (physical skills).

[rkim291968]

I absolutely hate it when I tee off with hybrid in order to avoid trouble but find the same trouble (like putting it in water) anyway.   I am trying to play smart golf and it backfires.    I'd think this scenario is familiar to weekend golfer if they play smart in the first place.

[kw purp]

My experience is the longer the club the more severe the mishits can be. I've never seen anyone slice a 7i into an adjacent fairway or worse. I don't think the point is playing shorter clubs eliminates mistakes just that the penalty is less severe. Especially on shorter holes where driver is excessive anyway. Besides most of the guys I see hitting their driver all over the course only hit it longer than their long-mid irons a small percentage of the time, ball travels further left or right than towards the hole. The decision to continually take the chance with the driver is based on the one or two good hits they get all day. The reality is they are playing that way unintentionally with greater consequences.

If your doing this ^ there is no way your a consistent enough long iron player to make up those strokes anyway. 7 irons off the tee? A player of that skill level on a good hit might hit a 7 iron 150 yards. He then has 250 yards to the green for his 2nd?

If you are at that level of play there is no strategy or mindset that will lead to better scores. You just have to improve your skill level

[kw purp]

Unless you include mental skill (course management), this is not a true statement.  I do feel that there would be a ceiling to how good you could get without improving your ball striking (physical skills).

Everyone who has played golf for a year or more knows the basics of course management. They might not know the advanced aspects but they do not have the control (myself included) to execute those consistently. If you cant make consistently decent contact I don't care how good your mental game is. If you are a 20 plus HCP you do not make consistent enough contact to have your course management skills be the blame for your poor scoring.

[Jeremie Boop]

If your doing this ^ there is no way your a consistent enough long iron player to make up those strokes anyway. 7 irons off the tee? A player of that skill level on a good hit might hit a 7 iron 150 yards. He then has 250 yards to the green for his 2nd?

If you are at that level of play there is no strategy or mindset that will lead to better scores. You just have to improve your skill level

I honestly can't argue that playing 7i off the tee on a 400 yd par 4 is a good idea for anyone really. If the hole is that long you need to be at least 200 of the tee to have a realistic chance of hitting the green at least part of the time. Sub 400 yard par 4's *which are the majority of par 4's I've seen from standard tees* you can be a lot more conservative and take trouble out of the equation still leaving yourself a manageable distance to the green. Most par 4's I see are around 360 or so, which I could play a 4 or 5 iron from the tee and leave myself 150 or less to center of the green. I'm still not comfortable at that distance though, I'd rather bet 130ish because that's my AW which I'm usually better with anyway. That's why I'm going to start using hybrid from the tee more, to get out far enough to put a club I have confidence with in my hands. I initially bought the wrong lofted hybrid, an 18*, which goes further than what I wanted so need to get a 21*.

[14ledo81]

The only way to lower your handicap is to improve your skill level.

Everyone who has played golf for a year or more knows the basics of course management. They might not know the advanced aspects but they do not have the control (myself included) to execute those consistently. If you cant make consistently decent contact I don't care how good your mental game is. If you are a 20 plus HCP you do not make consistent enough contact to have your course management skills be the blame for your poor scoring.

I agree that the far more important reason someones scores bad is there ball striking skills (not course management).  In your first post on this topic though, you were stating absolutes.  Certainly you can improve "some" with better course management.

[far and sure]

I literally dont pick up a club until a half hour before my regular tee time on saturday mornings.a quick warm up and i am on the first tee,i play with three of my buddies that are various handicaps,the lowest one being 15,he plays sometimes three times a week and practices.

on the whole i will shoot somewhere between 90-96 on average,sometimes i break into the eighties and that recently have been based on a improved short game(but still horrible putting)

my general view is being i have a 20 handicap is that for the average guy,who just plays ONCE a week it is diffificult to put all aspects of your game together IE

Drive well,hit second shots to the green,short game is on,and putting well.these things require practice,and as the old saying goes,even a blind squirrel finds a acorn every once in a while. and sometimes a high handicapper can look like a golfer.

[Dave2512]

I honestly can't argue that playing 7i off the tee on a 400 yd par 4 is a good idea for anyone really. If the hole is that long you need to be at least 200 of the tee to have a realistic chance of hitting the green at least part of the time. Sub 400 yard par 4's *which are the majority of par 4's I've seen from standard tees* you can be a lot more conservative and take trouble out of the equation still leaving yourself a manageable distance to the green. Most par 4's I see are around 360 or so, which I could play a 4 or 5 iron from the tee and leave myself 150 or less to center of the green. I'm still not comfortable at that distance though, I'd rather bet 130ish because that's my AW which I'm usually better with anyway. That's why I'm going to start using hybrid from the tee more, to get out far enough to put a club I have confidence with in my hands. I initially bought the wrong lofted hybrid, an 18*, which goes further than what I wanted so need to get a 21*.

Most guys aren't hitting GIR anyway and the mishit longer club can often lead to a 3rd shot from trouble. Look at amateur GIR averages it's not very high, even for the low handicap guys.  I'd rather be short of the green with wedge in hand and a good angle than trying to do something desperate from either side of the green with a bad lie. I make more pars playing for bogey than I do taking risks. I suppose course setup plays a part. Here the rough, even close to the green, is never better than the fairway. The degree of difficulty is many times more trying hack it out of deep grass compared to a mundane pitch/chip. Surely this isn't lost on people that watch pro golf. That's why the crew calling it groan about the lies and the pros grimace after missing the green. The difference is they are adept at getting up and down from tricky lies, we are not.

[Jeremie Boop]

Most guys aren't hitting GIR anyway and the mishit longer club can often lead to a 3rd shot from trouble. Look at amateur GIR averages it's not very high, even for the low handicap guys.  I'd rather be short of the green with wedge in hand and a good angle than trying to do something desperate from either side of the green with a bad lie. I make more pars playing for bogey than I do taking risks. I suppose course setup plays a part. Here the rough, even close to the green, is never better than the fairway. The degree of difficulty is many times more trying hack it out of deep grass compared to a mundane pitch/chip. Surely this isn't lost on people that watch pro golf. That's why the crew calling it groan about the lies and the pros grimace after missing the green. The difference is they are adept at getting up and down from tricky lies, we are not.

Not sure if you are disagreeing with my point or just expanding on it. Basically my point is, even if you hit 7i 2x *based on the estimated 150 yd distance* you are still 100 yd out which is not exactly a "green light" to shoot at the pin for most average golfers, even based on tour pro stats from 100 yds they are only getting to within 15 ft of the hole on average at the top end. I'm saying you want no less than 200 off the tee on a 400 yd hole to even give yourself a shot at hitting the green and if not hitting the green getting very close for an easier up and down than 100 yd out.

[Slice of Life]

Not sure if you are disagreeing with my point or just expanding on it. Basically my point is, even if you hit 7i 2x *based on the estimated 150 yd distance* you are still 100 yd out which is not exactly a "green light" to shoot at the pin for most average golfers, even based on tour pro stats from 100 yds they are only getting to within 15 ft of the hole on average at the top end. I'm saying you want no less than 200 off the tee on a 400 yd hole to even give yourself a shot at hitting the green and if not hitting the green getting very close for an easier up and down than 100 yd out.

A typical amateur golfer using a 7 iron on a 400 yard par 4, is asking for a double bogey. 155 down the middle, 150 again, 95 yards away...miss the green...chip up, two putt.

And that's assuming no trouble. But I bet the stats would show the percentages are <25% for hitting a green from 95 yards away for a mid-high handicapper.

[colin007]

average guy i see on the weekend?  cannot break 100 legitimately.

[Jeremie Boop]

A typical amateur golfer using a 7 iron on a 400 yard par 4, is asking for a double bogey. 155 down the middle, 150 again, 95 yards away...miss the green...chip up, two putt.

And that's assuming no trouble. But I bet the stats would show the percentages are <25% for hitting a green from 95 yards away for a mid-high handicapper.

Pretty much what I was saying, no reason to ever take 7i off the tee for such a long hole.

[Dave2512]

Not sure if you are disagreeing with my point or just expanding on it. Basically my point is, even if you hit 7i 2x *based on the estimated 150 yd distance* you are still 100 yd out which is not exactly a "green light" to shoot at the pin for most average golfers, even based on tour pro stats from 100 yds they are only getting to within 15 ft of the hole on average at the top end. I'm saying you want no less than 200 off the tee on a 400 yd hole to even give yourself a shot at hitting the green and if not hitting the green getting very close for an easier up and down than 100 yd out.

My point is it's likely one in the same. The guy playing golf that way has just as much chance to duff a longer club and still be faced with the same distance to the green but with a worse lie. The advantage to laying up is minimizing the risk of a difficult lie. They're not anymore adept getting up and down from 30 out than 100 out when the shot is anything but straight forward. Never said anything about shooting at flags just that getting into position to 2 putt, even if the 3rd shot lands shot of the green in 3 safely is a smart play.

But a bigger issue for me is why is the guy that hits a 7i 150 playing the course from tees that stretch the par 4's out to 400. That the first mistake. At my home course the white tees only have 3 par 4's over 400. That's where this type of golfer should be playing and using clubs they are somewhat proficient with. The scorecard has tee recommendations based on handicap. For the white tees the recommended HI range is 19-30.

[Slice of Life]

My point is it's likely one in the same. The guy playing golf that way has just as much chance to duff a longer club and still be faced with the same distance to the green but with a worse lie. The advantage to laying up is minimizing the risk of a difficult lie. They're not anymore adept getting up and down from 30 out than 100 out when the shot is anything but straight forward. Never said anything about shooting and flags just that getting into position to 2 putt, even if the 3rd shot lands shot of the green in 3 safely is a smart play.

But a bigger issue for me is why is the guy that hits a 7i 150 playing the course from tees that stretch the par 4's out to 400. That the first mistake. At my home course the white tees only have 3 par 4's over 400. That's where this type of golfer should be playing and using clubs they are somewhat proficient with. The scorecard has tee recommendations based on handicap. For the white tees the recommended HI range is 19-30.

One of my favorite places to play has a 417 yard par 4 from the whites. Shortest tees you can use without hitting from the ladies tees.

[Jeremie Boop]

But a bigger issue for me is why is the guy that hits a 7i 150 playing the course from tees that stretch the par 4's out to 400. That the first mistake. At my home course the white tees only have 3 par 4's over 400. That's where this type of golfer should be playing and using clubs they are somewhat proficient with. The scorecard has tee recommendations based on handicap. For the white tees the recommended HI range is 19-30.

I actually think the same thing, I play from the whites myself and I can count the number of par 4s at 400 or higher in my area on one hand probably. Typically they play about 360 or less which would make the 2 shots with a 7i much more likely to work out. At the same time though, they'd be better off taking as long an iron as they can reliably hit and leaving themselves with a shorter 2nd shot. I've commented before that I know there is probably very few holes where I really should be pulling driver but for some reason I can't get myself to not do it.