Male Scratch Golfer on the LPGA Tour

[Fat Slice]

I think it comes down to putting. No question that the scratch man would get to more par 5 holes in 2 and would be using shorter and more accurate irons on the par 3 and par 4 holes. Sure, he would get into a little more trouble by missing fairways, but I think a short iron out of the rough doesn't give up too much over a long iron from the fairway. My guess is that the man might have an ever-so-slight advantage in getting to the green once everything is factored in...which leaves putting. I agree with Iacas that you don't see women putting like Tiger or Kim or Clark...or, to be honest, like most men who make the cut at their events. The question, then, is how good would a scratch male golfer be putting on LPGA greens? I figure he'd be right there with the average woman, so, yeah, he'd make a lot of cuts but probably not be on the top fold of the leaderboard.

She said Ben beat her

Oh no, not again!

[WUTiger]

From aboutgolf.com: For the purposes of rating the difficulty of courses through course rating and slope rating, the USGA defines a scratch golfer thusly: "An amateur player who plays to the standard of the stroke play qualifiers competing in the United States Amateur Championship. The male scratch golfer hits his tee shots an average of 250 yards and can reach a 470-yard hole in two shots. The female scratch golfer can hit her tee shots an average of 210 yards and can reach a 400-yard hole in two shots."

OK, a scratch golfer generally shoots about even, and is better than a 4 HDCP.

I think Stina Sternberg's point about pressure is a valid one. Ok, a scratch player is probably a pretty cool customer on the golf course, but when the heat is really on and he's playing golf to make a living, then it's a ton more pressure - especially with galleries and TV cameras. ....

Kingfisher 's comments beg this question: Why was Mr. Am at 4 HDCP? Lingering swing flaws? A former +2 in college who now has a fulltime job, a wife, two kids ages 5 and 7, and a tan chow dog named Fluffy? And, what kind of scores would Mr. Am shoot en route to a 4 HDCP? Using an online handicap calculator http://www.csgnetwork.com/golfhcapcalc.html , I have computed a 10-round HDCP Index for Mr. Am. I am using course data Sunset Hills C.C. in Edwardsville, IL., a frequent site for regional amateur events. From the middle White tees (6427 yds., Par 72 ), the course rating is 71.2 and the slope is 132. Let's take a look at hypothetical scores which would give Mr. Am a Handicap Index of 3.7: | 82 | 76 | 81 | 82 | 78 | 73 | 81 | 79 | 80 | 79 | So, given this scenario, Mr. Am doesn't break 80 in half his normal rounds. So, as a 4 HDCP he's going to struggle and fizzle, unless he can use "...decent caddie, a swing coach..." to help him improve his game. So, after several weeks on the LPGA tour, maybe he will start upgrading his game skills. But, if he can't break 80 on half his rounds, how will he make the cuts? Also, does he get a season of sponsor's exemptions for this experiment? Or, is he the LPGA equivalent of the rabbit who has to qualify on site each week? The thread has already shifted to the more interesting question, can a male scratch golfer survive on the LPGA tour? Doesn't look good for our 4 HDCPer.

[sean_miller]

I am using course data Sunset Hills C.C. in Edwardsville, IL., a frequent site for regional amateur events. From the middle White tees (6427 yds.,

Not the point of the argument, but why the wide range of scores for Mr 3.7? If I ever get to 3.7, I expect most, if not all, my scores will be sub-80, but what do I know!?!?

[WUTiger]

Sean,

My scenario may be overly sensitive to the high slope rating of the course. My initial scenario had low scores of -1, E, +2, +4, +5 ... and Mr. Am came out with about a 1.7 HI.

Also, inconsistent golfers could easily get lower HIs than consistent ones because inconsistents keep the low scores and dump the high ones. What I'm saying is, a somewhat inconsistent golfer could have a 3.7 HI and not break 80 half the time, since the high half of the scores get dropped from the calculation.

I tried working on an analogy of how HIs are like beaver lodges, but it just didn't pan out. Maybe later.

[kafka01]

What i dont understand is, why nobody ever came up with a challenge, that the normal country club scratch golfer can have a shot at a LPGA tour. I´m really not talking about Top Amateurs, since we all know that they are good enough to have a serious shot at PGA tour events - i talk about the guys who "couldnt break 80" on a though PGA tour setup.

You had Wie and Sorenstam playing PGA Tour events, you had Anna Rawson petitioning for combined events, then again i never heared from the Ladies or their federation to have male golfers having a shot at their events.

Lots of people talk about it, that your avg. scratch golfer wouldnt stand a chance, but then again, i really would love to see them go head to head. Somebody with connections to relevent media or the LPGA really should try pitch them this idea...

[Fat Slice]

Finally, a tour for Jerry Rice.

[Fatphil]

Not the point of the argument, but why the wide range of scores for Mr 3.7?

yeh I'm with you Sean....those are pretty much my scores and I'm an 8.5...I didn't think the slope had that much effect. Most slopes I play are in the mid-high

120's, does a 5 point jump mean that much?

[sean_miller]

yeh I'm with you Sean....those are pretty much my scores and I'm an 8.5...I didn't think the slope had that much effect. Most slopes I play are in the mid-high

Not a threadjack - a minor detour. Consider two courses I play occasionally:

Alberta Springs. Rating 72.4 and Slope 134. The course suits my game and my eye, but I seem to always have one blowup hole. Let's say every time out there, I tend to shoot around 80 (79-81) and drop one stroke due to ESC. If I turn in a lot of Alberta Springs cards, my index would be somewhere between 5.3 and 6.0. Meadowlands. Rating 69.0 and Slope 118. It's a course best suited for keeping the ball along the ground. There are some awkward holes and the wind always seems to be blowing the wrong direction. I might eventually turn in some better scores there, but for the sake of argument, let's say I turn in a few 79s there too. Playing that course exclusively would give me an index or about 9.1. There is no way I'm a 5.3 capper, so I make sure not to play a course too often if I shoot uncharacteristally well there - it's setting me up for failure. A scratch golfer on the other hand - he or she can shoot the rating on any course, so comparing a 0.00 or a slight + to a 3.7 is crazy talk.

[westcyderydin]

the difference between the male scratch golfer and the lpga pro (besides their down there parts) is that the scratch player has a job and golfs as much as he can when he is not working or spending time with his family. the lpga pro's job is golf. she spends her 40 hours a week golfing and probably much more than that. and she has equipment and instruction easily availible to her which can make a difference.

now if you take a male scratch golfer, make golf his job, get him a swing coach and some perfectly fit equipment, and have a caddy to help him out an carry his bag he is going to be better than a scratch golfer. and give him some time and he will be used to the course conditions and the crowds and cameras. it may depend of the age and playing style of the scratch player, but i would say he would have a good chance of keeping his card and still a chance of being pretty good on the tour.

[iacas]

Bump, since I linked to this thread in another thread, and discussion may pick up here again.

[mikelegacy]

I personally think that the men would have a good chance. Not saying they would win every event, but put a man in the same conditions (same tee boxes) and he will almost definitely get the green faster than the woman. I'm no sexist, but short of a bodybuilder, 99.9% of women would be nuts to say they are stronger than me. I know it's more about swing speed than strength, but still. Men just hit the ball farther on average. If the guy has a good short game, which a lot of women lack, he would crush the field in my opinion.

[nuck81]

The average man hits it farther than the average woman yes.  But not farther than the average lady pro.  At least not enough to have a tremendous advantage.

A scratch Golfer can play a non championship course to even par or a little better.  An LPGA player could play a non championship course to 6,7, or 8 under with no problem.

A non pro male who plays to scratch would get eaten alive on the LPGA.

[mikelegacy]

The average man hits it farther than the average woman yes.  But not farther than the average lady pro.  At least not enough to have a tremendous advantage.

A scratch Golfer can play a non championship course to even par or a little better.  An LPGA player could play a non championship course to 6,7, or 8 under with no problem.

A non pro male who plays to scratch would get eaten alive on the LPGA.

Idk man. If they were both playing from men's tees or from woman's tees the score would be more even in my opinion. No one here is saying they could win, just that they can compete.

[normdamarine]

I will add that I was playing with one of Japans top female amatures last year. It was a freindly exhibition that was setup by a man that is well know with the Japanese golf community and the United States Military. The 2nd hole was a fairly easy Par 5, 540 that was straight with not much of any trouble. Now, take into account that we were both playing from the same tees, I bombed it by her and she was just shaking her head. She had to hit 3 wood into the green where I hit 5 iron, now I hit a pretty good shot that was around 25 feet or so but let me tell you that she stiffed it to about 6 feet or so. She missed the putt but I was very impressed by her "long" club play nd this continued throughout the day, she was very accurate. In the end I think my distance weighed on her and frustrated her a little bit, she was hitting 4 irons when I was hitting 8 irons. I think that is where the difference comes into play, a good male player that is semi long and hits good irons can compete on that level, at least I would like to think so... Just like on tour, it is hard to beat distance...

[michaeljames92]

You hit driver, 5 iron into a 540 yard par 5?

Originally Posted by normdamarine

I will add that I was playing with one of Japans top female amatures last year. It was a freindly exhibition that was setup by a man that is well know with the Japanese golf community and the United States Military. The 2nd hole was a fairly easy Par 5, 540 that was straight with not much of any trouble. Now, take into account that we were both playing from the same tees, I bombed it by her and she was just shaking her head. She had to hit 3 wood into the green where I hit 5 iron, now I hit a pretty good shot that was around 25 feet or so but let me tell you that she stiffed it to about 6 feet or so. She missed the putt but I was very impressed by her "long" club play nd this continued throughout the day, she was very accurate. In the end I think my distance weighed on her and frustrated her a little bit, she was hitting 4 irons when I was hitting 8 irons. I think that is where the difference comes into play, a good male player that is semi long and hits good irons can compete on that level, at least I would like to think so... Just like on tour, it is hard to beat distance...

[iacas]

Originally Posted by nuck81

The average man hits it farther than the average woman yes.  But not farther than the average lady pro.  At least not enough to have a tremendous advantage.

A scratch Golfer can play a non championship course to even par or a little better.  An LPGA player could play a non championship course to 6,7, or 8 under with no problem.

A non pro male who plays to scratch would get eaten alive on the LPGA.

We're not talking about the average man. We're talking about a true scratch golfer.

Even par or a little better is enough to not "get eaten alive." Look at some of the cut lines and some of the bottom half of the LPGA Tour. They're playing tees that are in the 68-71 rating range for men, most of the time.

(I've played a few of them. The one in Toledo, Locust Hill now... etc.).

[normdamarine]

Yes...

Originally Posted by michaeljames92

You hit driver, 5 iron into a 540 yard par 5?

[wmiller]

I've actually played with a few LPGA pros, and played regularly with a young college girl who went on the tour shortly thereafter. My one and only coach was friend to quite a few, and when they were in town for the Dina Shore, would show up to visit and get in some practice.

I could occasionally beat my young friend, but never ever beat the touring pros. Even when I shot 68-67. I could out drive them, but it didn't matter. Beth just flat kicked my arse...

You want to make yourself feel better by telling yourself you can beat the girls, by all means go ahead. But maybe you should trying playing with a few first...  ;-)