The Stack and Tilt Golf Swing

[Antneye]

1 hour ago, boogielicious said:

You've seen threads about S&T, Moe Norman's swing, single plane, two plane, A plane, etc. swings. The proponents of these swings show PGA players who've used them. They were all used successfully by good players. And although they appear to be different, they all had certain fundamental things in common. These are the 5 Simple Keys. 

5SK is not a swing method. The  5 Simple Keys are the fundamental components of every good golf swing. What is great about it is it allows 5SK instructors to work with your body, your ability, your aestheticism and help you improve your golf swing. And it removes all the quirky components required by an individual swing method that your body may never be able to achieve.

I am seeing exactly that. I still don't think there is any harm in me reading this book as it will help me fix some flaws that I have in my swing. I m trying to take a more holistic view of my golf swing than I have over the years. I am trying to be a little more open than I have in the past where I would only think in terms of Hogans book and think I know everything. I think some of the items described in this book can help me, but I am thinking about it in terms of what 5sk teaches. 

Am I wrong in thinking about it in that fashion? 

[boogielicious]

27 minutes ago, Antneye said:

I am seeing exactly that. I still don't think there is any harm in me reading this book as it will help me fix some flaws that I have in my swing. I m trying to take a more holistic view of my golf swing than I have over the years. I am trying to be a little more open than I have in the past where I would only think in terms of Hogans book and think I know everything. I think some of the items described in this book can help me, but I am thinking about it in terms of what 5sk teaches. 

Am I wrong in thinking about it in that fashion? 

Not at all. I read the book and still have it. I would recommend just skimming the more confusing technical stuff though. IIRC, there was a chapter that really confused me and I am a chemical engineer used to difficult, confusing technical talk!

[iacas]

3 hours ago, Antneye said:

Am I wrong in thinking about it in that fashion? 

Nobody's said anything like that.

It's a good book. Just avoid most of the instructors, and take some of their "facts" with a block of salt.

[Antneye]

1 hour ago, iacas said:

Nobody's said anything like that.

It's a good book. Just avoid most of the instructors, and take some of their "facts" with a block of salt.

Will do. I'm actually on the course right now and am loving how I am striking the ball keeping the few principles I've picked up so far from this site. 

I can't wait to get a swing thread going!

[span3636]

I used the stack and tilt off and on a few years ago. I found I hit a low draw most of the time. I also took deep divots. I believe it is a valid technique, but not sure it is for me.

[vjgidda]

Stack and Hack.  

Good for  short iron play, but not for longer clubs because of the steeper angle of attack.

Just hit off balls off a downhill lie or from a fairway bunker instead if you want to feel more "on top of the ball" in your swing.

 

I sure my insights are not new.

[Jack Watson]

I goofed around with it off and on.  Hit some sweet short irons.  Hit driver low.  

It never grew on me.

[Etzwane]

The standard S&T fix to steep angle of attack and deep divots is more hip slide in the downswing. With all knobs turned to max, the ball flight should be high draws.

[anker0071]

I have read the S&T book, watched the DVD's, communicate regularly with a well known S&T instructor, and the only lesson in my life has been with an S&T instructor. I have also watched many of the 5SK videos, read LSW, and obviously post and browse the content on this site. Most if not all of what I have learned about the golf swing has come from S&T, 5SK and a little from Lynn Blake. So here is my interpretation of this topic... 

I interpreted both in S&T and 5SK that there are commonalities all players have that strike the ball well. S&T describes it as solid ball first contact, generating sufficient power, and controlling the curve. 5SK describes these commonalities as steady head, weight forward (at impact), inline impact condition, sweet spot path, and clubface control. Learning how to achieve all eight of these objectives in my mind, would make for a ball striking machine. From what I have read on these forums, the differences come with how these ball striking conditions are taught. I just wanted to post my experiences from S&T...

In the numerous conversations I have had with the aforementioned instructor, the one lesson I received, and my interpretation of the book, no S&T guy said my swing has to look like Charlie Wi or Mike Bennett. Most of the conversations I have are on how I should stop overdoing some pieces. I expected in my lesson to center around which of the "10 words" I needed more of. But on the way home from said lesson, I thought to myself that if I didn't know he was a certified S&T instructor from the website, I would never have known. To me, book is full of historic pictures of players who would never be classed as S&T in order to illustrate S&T concepts. I interpreted this as while it may look different, all these greats make great contact, hit it far enough, and can control the curve.

It is unfortunate that S&T has so much animosity thrown it's way, and I am not an instructor, (nor do I know or communicate with any other than the two I mentioned) but it seems that I see a lot of awful players that need a lot of the "fundamentals of S&T" and or 5SK. Sorry for the long post, but I think that both instructional systems have value and can improve a players game... based solely on my individual experiences. 

[vjgidda]

3 hours ago, Etzwane said:

The standard S&T fix to steep angle of attack and deep divots is more hip slide in the downswing. With all knobs turned to max, the ball flight should be high draws.

Hip slide works for a week then becomes upper body hang back resulting in snap hooks.

[taxgolf]

It is late in the evening here in the Netherlands. Might be a sentimental fool here. 

I have met Andy and Mike, spent a day with them, and I loved it. I admire(d) them for a lot.

I started playing golf and I had no clue whatsoever. You can not compare golf in Holland with golf in the USA, so I won't even begin. When I started playing golf, an ex-colleague of mine told me about a local teacher. See him, he supposed to be good. I couldn't hit a ball consistently. That teacher had a systematic approach, different from so many teachers in Holland. I took some lessons on a regular basis with him. He gave me drills, and I practised, as much as I could. Sadly, if I could (and yet: can) make it to the Driving Range once a week, I had a good week. Still, my iron play improved tremendously, better, quickly. If I must judge my game, I would say my iron play is the most solid piece of my game.

I never practiced with the driver, and yet, every time I went to the course, My game would hold up. But, the most inconsistent part of my game, is.... my driver. Somehow, it is not consistent enough. Sure, I have rounds were that thing is on song. But to me, it is not consistent. I do accept, with my HCP (12.5), I will have a mishit. I do have that with my irions. As long it is comparable with my irons, I am ok with that.

One sad piece of it, is that I can not allign correctly on the T-box. Tried everything. I just don't see it. I just don't. I get distracted on the T-box if that box is on a different angle than the meandering fairway. I used to think that I hit pushes all the time, but mostly it was due to incorrect alignment. Furthermore, I do feel somehow, I do not have the proper driver. I have a Callaway 3w, black series with the light bassara shaft. I hit that thing blindly. Feels so natural. I need that with my driver. Should resolve with a planned fitting.

I heared the hip slide and the argument that it will result in a hanging upper body, as stated above, To me, that is nonsense. You have to practise. I had and entered a lot of discussions in which people told me that I moved my weight to the right or from times to times hung my upper body back. It took me some time to see and acknowledge, 1) that I didn't put enough effort in the practise, 2) appearently, my body was fighting against it, 3) I didn't execute it as I should.

I made a call for my self to 'let it/S&T go', let my body dictate the swing. Why fight it when you can go with the flow? And, I have to admit, I watched a lot of other clips from teachers (5sk, J. Mayo, G. Gankas, to name a few). I even had a lesson from the great Mayo. So I wondered what it would bring. I let the focus of 'weight left' etc. go. The funny part of it all: I am swinging more centered than I ever did. Consistent. Consistent with irons, hybride and 3w. Now I need that for the driver.

So, where does it leave me? I do think that there is a risk of a hanging upper body. Yet, I see tons of golfers whom would benefit from the systematic approach. I am sure I still have some elements in my swing which could be labeled as S&T. But I think I departured S&T a bit. But don't we all? Or should we call it 'evolve'? I hope so.

Good night, I am going to watch The Presidents cup matches and turn in. 

 

 

[Jay28]

This week I started incorporating elements of S&T into my swing.

It's been a revelation for me. I am doing 5 things...

Leaving weight 55/45 in favour of the left leg at the top of the backswing.

Backswing turns around my body more - zero "up" with the club (my position at the top of the backswing keeps my hands just above my head because of the plane even though I feel like I am swing in and around on the takeaway).

Hip slide (not turn) initiates downswing.

Let rip with the arms.

By the time I make contact 80% (at least) of my weight is on my left side.

Short term results from range and 9 holes...

I feel way way more confident over the ball and during the swing.  The thought of chunking or topping just doesn't enter my mind.  100's of swings this week and I hit the ground in the same place (after the ball) every time with short irons.

On the range, I am hitting the ball '2 clubs' longer. Added about 20 yards to my 7 iron.

Biggest improvement is with driver and fairway woods. Slice is gone and hitting it longer.

I have even been hitting the driver off the deck really well this week (just wanted to see if I could do it as I never have been able to before). I don't know why I have seen such dramatic improvement, but I am amazed - I suspect it's because my major flaw with my swing for years was swaying on the backswing...something I just could not control.  I am not so loose in the shoulders and back and it was impossible for me to really elimiate the sway when transfering weight to the right side and turning shoulders 90 degrees.

Just got back from a 9 hole par 3 round - I scored 1 under par. Not bad for someone who rarely breaks 90 on a full course.  Going to stick at this S&T thing for a while and see if I can make the consistency of strike this week last.

Edited May 24, 2019 by Jay28

[trainsmokegolf]

5 minutes ago, Jay28 said:

This week I started incorporating elements of S&T into my swing.

It's been a revelation for me. I am doing 5 things...

Leaving weight 55/45 in favour of the left leg at the top of the backswing.

Backswing turns around my body more - zero "up" with the club (my position at the top of the backswing keeps my hands just above my head because of the plane even though I feel like I am swing in and around on the takeaway).

Hip slide (not turn) initiates downswing.

Let rip with the arms.

By the time I make contact 80% (at least) of my weight is on my left side.

Short term results:

I feel way way more confident over the ball and during the swing.  The thought of chunking or topping just doesn't enter my mind.  100's of swings this week and I hit the ground in the same place (after the ball) every time with short irons.

I am hitting the ball '2 clubs' longer. Added about 20 yards to my 7 iron.

Biggest improvement is with driver and fairway woods. Slice is gone and hitting it longer.

I have even been hitting the driver off the deck really well this week (just wanted to see if I could do it as I never have been able to before). I don't know why I have seen such dramatic improvement, but I am amazed - I suspect it's because my major flaw with my swing for years was swaying on the backswing...something I just could not control.  I am not so loose in the shoulders and back and it was impossible for me to really elimiate the sway when transfering weight to the right side and turning shoulders 90 degrees.

Just got back from a 9 hole par 3 round - I scored 1 under par. Not bad for someone who rarely breaks 90 on a full course.  Going to stick at this S&T thing for a while and see if I can make the consistency of this week last.

Interesting, and I think stacking on your lead side is a natural feeling as well for some people,  nothing radical at all,   feels dynamic if anything

Edited May 24, 2019 by trainsmokegolf

[Jay28]

3 minutes ago, trainsmokegolf said:

Interesting, and I think stacking on your lead side is a natural feeling as well for some people,  nothing radical it,  feels dynamic if anything

It felt odd at first, but does feel natural already.  My sway is gone completely.  If anything my backside is moving slightly towards the target on the backswing.  The position at the top inspires confidence.  I don;t feel like I can miss it and have so much room.  No chance of the body getting in the way of the arms on the downswing.

Anyway - a week in and I am pretty amazed.  I really do think my experience is because I had such a flaw with swaying.

Edited May 24, 2019 by Jay28

[nevets88]

This was in my Instagram recently, this pretty much is inline with the model, no?

 

[iacas]

1 hour ago, nevets88 said:

This was in my Instagram recently, this pretty much is inline with the model, no?

Not sure what you mean. It's inline with a lot of golf swings.

The biggest knock on S&T remains that some people, some instructors, so badly botch it that they actually create a swing where too much weight stays forward during the backswing.

[Jay28]

12 hours ago, iacas said:

Not sure what you mean. It's inline with a lot of golf swings.

The biggest knock on S&T remains that some people, some instructors, so badly botch it that they actually create a swing where too much weight stays forward during the backswing.

Do you mean too much weight is transferred forward in the backswing?  Or are you saying there should be a weight shift to the right side in the backswing?

[iacas]

1 hour ago, Jay28 said:

Do you mean too much weight is transferred forward in the backswing?  Or are you saying there should be a weight shift to the right side in the backswing?

Both when done incorrectly.