The Stack and Tilt Golf Swing

[pavespawn]

First off, I have to say that I am very skeptical about "radical swing changes." That being said I was a big fan of the Gravity Golf back in the 90s. I have been watching the SnT demos on YouTube and I went about trying to copy it. So a few days ago I try it on the range and I was making much better contact with ball with the SnT style. It really made a loud crack when I contacted the ball and they were beautiful high draws. So I went and ordered the videos and I bought the book at the local books-a-million. I went out to the range again today and I was able to hit my 4 wood higher and straighter than I ever have.
Here is were I am having problems:
My mid to short irons are drawing up to 40 yards. I hesitate to call it a hook because my hooks have always been low duck hooks.
My driver swings are almost all pushes, and I mean like 40 yards the other way but perfectly straight.
I know the book will fix me (I think) but can I get some tips because I really like this swing and I want my wife and sons to learn it as well. (Plus I have a tournament coming up and I can't just swap around swings like others can)

[Easy]

It was the media that started giving it a name really, and for Mike and Andy to get some attention, they had to name it something. If you find the philosophy of S&T; in the best players I'm not surprised, since that is exactly how Mike and Andy created S&T.; They looked at thousands of golfers, good and bad through the history of this sport. They looked at what the best players had in common and put it together. S&T; is what a lot of players already do, all top players got 80-90% of the S&T; principles. It's the badmouthing S&T; has recieved from the rest of the instructing world and the media that has given it a bad reputation. None of those negative comments have been based on facts, they are just trying to protect their own philosophy and business by cocking up stuff.

Yeap. I think there biggest mistake was coining the term "Stack and Tilt" and showing how there swing is different from the modern one. You're always going to get massive criticism when you challenge the status quo.

[Beady]

Yeap. I think there biggest mistake was coining the term "Stack and Tilt" and showing how there swing is different from the modern one. You're always going to get massive criticism when you challenge the status quo.

See, I disagree. I think someone needed to come along and do exactly that in the game of golf. The swing needed to be demystified, the "rules" challenged. It's been criticized, but keeps growing and growing.

[J_Bone]

My driver swings are almost all pushes, and I mean like 40 yards the other way but perfectly straight.

Mine were doing the same thing. I used just a bit more of a stronger grip to close the face a bit. It turned my push to a nice draw.

[boogielicious]

I have been working on the same things.

If you are doing the back swing and down swing correctly (weight forward, hands in, etc.), then the path is in to out. A push just mean that the face was square to the path but open to target. To correct, close the face slightly with respect to the swing path and it should draw back to the target line. The face should still be open to target at address.

For the high overdraw, open the face slightly at address. It should still be high or higher, but will draw a bit less. It's a bit of tweaking, but the high soft draw that goes back to target is a thing of beauty.

[pavespawn]

I just got to the part in the book that covers ball position. I have been playing the ball too far back. I will have to adjust when I get to the range next time. I may not be pushing my hips out enough on my drives either. Straight arms!!!! I love the way I can fade the ball now!!!

[halcon]

Ok, I am getting into the S&T; wagon (I just order the book, should arrive in a couple of days). I have a question: I am planning to play a local tourney next month (09/17) so, should I start changing my swing to S&T;, or should I wait until I play the Tourney?

[majorchamp]

Well by the math, choking down on the club will probably loose you 5% velocity of the clubhead. Just for sanity, smash factor of 1.35, your looking at about a 7-8 mph change in ball speed. Thats probably a good 10-15 yards of distance, well that for someone who swings at 120 mph club head speed. Its going to be less for a slower swing speed because the percentage of lower number is smaller. So anywere from 5-20 yards depending on swing speed.

for me...if I had to rish losing even 15 yards to gain accuracy, would take it in a heart beat. 300 yards 20 yards into the rough..or 285 in the short grass. no brainer!

[majorchamp]

I just got to the part in the book that covers ball position. I have been playing the ball too far back. I will have to adjust when I get to the range next time. I may not be pushing my hips out enough on my drives either. Straight arms!!!! I love the way I can fade the ball now!!!

Yea, for me because I would "load up on my right side"..I was also playing the ball too far forward. No wonder I never took a good divot or hit down on the ball.

Now, I play with my weight on the left side, ball position more with the center of my chest (for even some long irons) and I am hitting it great and taking nice divots. Even on my driver...I would block the living crap out of it, now it seems like the more weight I put on my left side...the straighter I hit it :) who would have thunk.

[boogielicious]

Halcon,

Go step by step. Get used to each step before moving on. Then whatever point your at for the Tourney, stay with that. Doing too much may frustrate you.

[saevel25]

Yep, same here.. I usually to swing out of my shoes, i could nail it out there close to 300, if i really tag one, i have some go up near 330. I usually choke down about half an inch, one reason is that i have been heeling the ball. I lost about 15 yards, i usually get 280-285, but i hit nearly all my fairways last week. Thats huge for me, no penalties from the teebox is huge.

[Beady]

Ok, I am getting into the S&T; wagon (I just order the book, should arrive in a couple of days). I have a question: I am planning to play a local tourney next month (09/17) so, should I start changing my swing to S&T;, or should I wait until I play the Tourney?

Like as already been said, start piece by piece. For me personally the quickest and most substantial gain was simply by eliminating the weightshift on the back swing and staying on my front leg. When I first tried it I kept much more than the 55/45 as is outlined. As I got used to it I would allow myself to move a little more back at a time until now I set up somewhere around 60/40. That one piece alone will change your golf swing. After that the downward turn of the left shoulder was the best gain for me.

Everyone is different, but do a little experimenting with some of the pieces, then keep what you are comfortable with and leave the rest for practice at the range.

[talismand]

So I have a question about how S&T; changes the angle of approach to the ball.

Before I started dabbling in S&T;, I was focused on the Jim Hardy 1-plane swing. When I would hit my irons on a lie board with some impact tape, I usually found my stock irons to be too upright (1~2 degrees). This made sense to me since most static fittings for my measurables indicated that I should look towards irons that are flatter than standard.

Well, since I switched to S&T;, I've been hitting the ball well enough to focus completely on this method. I've smashed all my previous bests (which were admittedly terrible) in any ball-striking type of statistic, etc. Since I'm becoming more and more comfortable with this method, I've decided its time to graduate from my Top Flite box garage-sale set (which was actually pretty nice) to some more "professional" clubs, Ping G15s. I've been hitting all kinds of clubs at the PGA Tour superstore, and I just like the way these feel the best.

Anyway, I'm rambling, the point of my post is that I decided to get a real Ping fitting today, and I was fitted for Yellow dots (+1.5 degree). This was a complete shock to me since my static fittings had me at red dots (-0.75), and as I said before, my last lie board session had me needing flatter irons. So how much of this change is due to S&T;? Seeing as how S&T; appears to be a variation of a one-plane swing, I would have thought that the fitting would point me to flatter irons as well. It makes me think that maybe I need to work more on S&T; before trying to upgrade my irons, since I'd hate to get these, then figure out a swing flaw and suddenly my irons are 4-degrees too upright. My typical miss with S&T; is a straight push right, about 10~15 yards right of my target, with the occasional nasty hook thrown in (usually when I try to play for the push by lining up left of my target, and end up hooking it 30 yards left of my aim point!).

The only other thing that was different were my shoes. Previously I was measured on grass at a range, with soft spikes, and 1/2" soles on my shoes. Whereas today it was indoors with sneakers with 2" soles. Would that have made a difference? I could imagine that standing taller might make me need a more upright club, but I'd like to hear someone else's opinion...

[iacas]

Before I get to my response, I just wanted to point this out:

Moving on...

Anyway, I'm rambling, the point of my post is that I decided to get a real Ping fitting today, and I was fitted for Yellow dots (+1.5 degree). This was a complete shock to me since my static fittings had me at red dots (-0.75), and as I said before, my last lie board session had me needing flatter irons. So how much of this change is due to S&T;? Seeing as how S&T; appears to be a variation of a one-plane swing, I would have thought that the fitting would point me to flatter irons as well.

Perhaps your old swing was - as you said (in different words) - simply too sucky to really make a fair assessment?

A good impact position is the same regardless of how you get there, and that's just about all that a properly fit club really cares about - impact.

The only other thing that was different were my shoes. Previously I was measured on grass at a range, with soft spikes, and 1/2" soles on my shoes. Whereas today it was indoors with sneakers with 2" soles. Would that have made a difference? I could imagine that standing taller might make me need a more upright club, but I'd like to hear someone else's opinion...

Wait, your sneakers have two inch thick soles? Huh? Since your arms don't grow two inches then, yes, your fitting would change. The length of the clubs will affect your fitting too.

S&T; requires no changes to a person's club fitting parameters unless they've changed impact so dramatically that it's now different than it once was.

[nevets88]

That one piece alone will change your golf swing

This is what I discovered. I shifted my weight back more than I thought and undoing that, keeping centered plus a little of the shoulder side tilt on the backswing (plane of inclination), not alot, moved the bottom of my swing forward a noticeable amount.

This centeredness combined with the deep hands makes my hands feel miles away from the ball at the top of the backswing. That's the hardest part to get used to. I used to have an upright swing, but the deep hands works better for me. So that's 3 SnT principles I've adopted - I don't straighten/unlock the back knee, jump or tuck the weight under my butt around impact or have an abbreviated finish. So does that make me SnT? I dunno, but the book and videos on YouTube really helped me understand the swing alot more. I wish SnT was available when I first started out.

[talismand]

Perhaps your old swing was - as you said (in different words) - simply too sucky to really make a fair assessment?

Yes, I will concede that this is a legitimate possibility.

Wait, your sneakers have two inch thick soles? Huh? Since your arms don't grow two inches then, yes, your fitting would change. The length of the clubs will affect your fitting too.

Ok, the soles are 1.5" and I have 1/2" inserts (it's a running setup, I have bad ankles/shins and it helps). So in essence I should go back with shoes closer to my playing shoes? Just to make sure I'm on the right track though, standing taller WOULD translate to getting fit for more upright clubs (assuming standard length clubs) correct?

S&T; requires no changes to a person's club fitting parameters unless they've changed impact so dramatically that it's now different than it once was.

Considering the difference in my results, I would have to think that this is the case. Maybe the best thing would be to get fit two more times, 1 month apart, giving me time to practice more in between, and if the fittings remain fairly consistent then I know its correct.

[iacas]

I suggest getting fit in the clothing and shoes you wear to play golf. On a grass range, ideally, hitting balls... That's what lie boards are for - you can hit balls off of them.

[oregongolfguy]

After almost a year of very little play do to work and two knee surgeries i got out on the range today. After reading most of this thread as well as other research i decided to see if i could work on trying to add some S&T; thoughts into my very average,amatuer,fade,push,handsy swing. It took me about 30 balls struck to figure out that i was coming too far from the inside at first....another 20-30 balls to get the hips and weight movement forward working right....but then it started to click. And when it finally started to click i was extremely impressed....I still had the usual consistancy problems, still hit some fat, and thin. But i could feel what i was doing wrong and correct it after i hit a few shots that felt right.....Its going to take some time to get the muscle memory really going but i was very satisfied. My last 3 shots were with my 9i, starting right and drawing back to my aiming point, probably a 5 yd draw, all 3 landing on a mini green at 138yds....I hit a 7i that flew the 165yd green....really amazing. I always considered myself a decent striker distance wise, always thought i made decent contact....but i had no idea until today what truly good contact was.....I am going to get the book tomorrow to help delve deeper into this....