The Stack and Tilt Golf Swing

[TomL]

Where S&T works best is for the amateurs, high handicappers, hackers, people like us on this forum. We struggle because we don't know how to do it properly and nobody has told us how. We struggle because golf instruction forever has been based on wrong ball flight laws and a lot of guesswork. With S&T, everything is explained. A 20 handicapper working with S&T for two weeks may see a 50% improvement, while Tiger Woods during the same time perhaps won't see any improvement.

For myself it's been at least a three year S&T ride.

I started with the Golf Digest article - I was on the range as soon as I read it - trying the pattern. I played that version for just over a year. Nice hits, and some improvement, but not a big drop in handicap - stuck around 14-15. It was self-taught. Then I bought DVD set and got into the intricate details that weren't in the magaizines. A small game inprovement. I took a live lesson at thegolfevolution with the S&T guys Dave Wedzik and Steve Sieracki and saw big swing improvement - but scoring stayed the same - just a few bright spots. My daughter bought the Plummer/Bennett book for me at Christmas and in the new golf year this spring I trecked to Erie for another full day clinic. That journey - and a lot of work on all aspects of the game - has finally paid off. My handicap started to drop in the middle of this summer. Better scores, better attitude - and many hours working at the range. My handicap hit 10 (down from 14) RCGA index 8.3! That was my goal about 5 years ago - I never thought it would happen. Then I broke through and reached 9 for two weeks. That was because of scores under 80 - a couple of 79's, 78's and a personal best 77 in there. I am 59 years old - my back feels better than ever and my game is in the best shape ever. My shot shape is a fade. I can count on it. I can throw a push/draw with driver out there on some of the holes that need it and are wide enough - but a fade gets me into the fairway most times. I feel I can do a lot to improve - my irons could be crisper; a few push/draws with my irons would be nice for sure. There are plenty of youtube videos and the forum at thegolfevolution.com has golfers like you working on their S&T swings and willing to offer advice for free. I thank them for their encouragment of my swing and for their video posts of their swings. The other aspects of the game should not be lost - putting, short game and the mental game all have to be worked on besides the full swing. Oh yes, you gotta believe!! Tom L Windsor, Ontario, Canada

[boogielicious]

"Was wondering on the importance of having the feet fanned outward with the s&t;(according to their dvd). I like to have my feet perpendicular to the target line. What benefits does having them fanned provide? "

It encourages your weight to stay more on the front leg during the back swing and helps maintain balance on your follow through. If your front foot is parallel, you tend to put weight on the ball of the front foot and your knee may bend more towards your back foot promoting a weight shift back. When it is at 30 degrees toward target, the knee will tend to bend towards the ball instead and the weight will stay the way you have it at address, 55/45.

On the follow through, you will put much less stress on your front ankle because the foot won't roll over as much. I have a bad left ankle from soccer and it really helps a lot. It takes a bit of practice to get used to it, but after some work, it will feel comfortable.

[iacas]

It encourages your weight to stay more on the front leg during the back swing and helps maintain balance on your follow through. If your front foot is parallel, you tend to put weight on the ball of the front foot and your knee may bend more towards your back foot promoting a weight shift back. When it is at 30 degrees toward target, the knee will tend to bend towards the ball instead and the weight will stay the way you have it at address, 55/45.

That's true. The other reason is because it lets the hips work better, particularly on the backswing, and encourages a better forward hip slide on the downswing (which you said).

[Zeph]

I simply feel more relaxed with the feet in a natural position. If I stand straight up and down on the floor, not trying to swing a golf club or anything, the feet are flared outwards. If I flare them even more out, or rotate them inwards to where they are perpendicular, it feels strained and unnatural. I don't think about the feet really, they just get to the position in which I feel comfortable.

[melchior]

I had forgotten about the feet being angled out until seeing this before my round today... I dunno if that was the reason, but my short irons were all more on target than I've ever had them when concentrating on them today.

[motteler621]

so I watched a video with Mike bennett explaining the golf ball flight laws and I was amazed that I hadnt picked up on this before when reading their stuff. Its seriously going to help out my game.

[iacas]

This belongs here as much as anywhere else:



Not Charlie's best swing, btw. And Johnny's wrong about the "shut face" bit. But overall, he likes it. I just wish he didn't draw that line right near P4...

[Arthur]

I have a question about my set up routine. I stand behind the ball pick my target and picture my swing. I circle around and walk up to the ball from a ninety degree angle place my club head behind the ball on the target line take my stance move my weight forward on my left foot, get the butt of the club forward and proceed to hit the ball with a shut club face, (especially the woods) which is about as welcome as a side of beef at a vegetirian picnic.

The question is should I intially place the club face several degrees open before taking my stance or is there a better method to get the club face in the right facing for the hands deep stack and tilt swing? I like the swing and need to get consistent with it. 'cause going back to my four plane right shift over the top hand flipping clubbing just isn't an option for me.

[iacas]

The question is should I intially place the club face several degrees open before taking my stance or is there a better method to get the club face in the right facing for the hands deep stack and tilt swing?

In a word, yes. Aim the clubface right, not at the target. If the ball is going to draw (and if you're starting it left of where you're aiming as it is), you need to give it room to the right to curve back to the left.

Don't open the face by twisting your hands. Set the clubface open, then take your grip.

[Arthur]

That's what I thought. Thanks.

[Gordon McTavish]

While on the subject of flaring the feet (I've been on the receiving end of opposing advice as usual), what are your thoughts on this article from TPI?

"In summary:

* The right foot should be set at right angles to the target line.
* If you violate this principle, don’t violate it by much – you can probably get away with 3-5 degrees of right foot flare. Any more than that and your hip joint is not going to like you later in life."

http://mytpi.navin.biz/articles/swin...the_right_foot

[saevel25]

Now that is something that hasn't change in a long time. When you open the clubface or close the clubface before you take your grip.

[iacas]

While on the subject of flaring the feet (I've been on the receiving end of opposing advice as usual), what are your thoughts on this article from TPI?

The right toe being flared 10-15 degrees helps with the right hip motion. It also inhibits early overflexing of the right knee on the downswing and encourages the heel to stay on the ground longer.

Several parts of that article make no sense to me.

Source: TPI Article One of the keys to right foot positioning is the configuration of the arch of the foot – I’m talking about the long arch along the inside of the foot. If the foot is pointing at right angles to the target line, the foot is in its biomechanical strongest position, ready to provide a great foundation for the swing. If you flare your right foot out to the right, the arch lengthens and the inner edge if the foot collapses toward the ground. This is a biomechanical weak position – the arch (and therefore the foot) is no longer providing a great foundation.

Huh? I can flare my feet 90 degrees and my arch doesn't "lengthen." What does that even mean? Rotation isn't just in the ankle - it's in your knee and hip too. Your ankle rotation should be next to zero.

Source: TPI Article You can prove this to yourself with what I call the “vertical jump test.” Place your feet shoulder-width apart with your feet pointing straight ahead. Now jump straight up in the air. Next, flare your feet out to the sides at, say, a 25-degree angle. Now jump up again. That felt different, didn’t it? With your feet flared out, your arches were longer and weaker – compared to the “straight feet” position the jump felt awkward and weak, right?

What that move has to do with the rotary and linear move in the golf swing I have no idea. And no, FWIW, it doesn't feel weaker to me. Though my wife wonders why I'm jumping up and down in the bedroom (it has vaulted ceilings - I told her I had enough sense to not go outside for this, at least).

Source: TPI Article The hip is now in a poor position to be loaded.

Bah, whatever. You want your hip to rotate back on the backswing. And a right hip that's rotated back will give your hands more room to come down than a hip that's not rotated or, to another extreme, which is rotated to the LEFT. I like TPI and the guys that work for 'em, but I think they miss the boat sometimes. Ask them about Brad Faxon dragging a tire around the beaches and the parking lot to "strengthen his core" so that he could stop moving his head off the ball...

[Gordon McTavish]

Thanks for the quick response Erik. I've had two instructors offer conflicting advice regarding "flaring the right foot." One was of the opinion that a flared foot allows a better pivot, but I don't recall the reasoning behind "perpendicular to the target line." I'd guess that line of thought was to restrict hip movement "for greater torque," or something similar.

[mvmac]

Ask them about Brad Faxon dragging a tire around the beaches and the parking lot to "strengthen his core" so that he could stop moving his head off the ball...

Great story when Andy and Mike tell it at clinics. TPI also told Faxon his core couldn't support his turn. Huh?

From memory Andy's response is something like, "Mike can tilt and extend his spine, turn his shoulders in a circle, while eating twinkies. Mike's got the tightest hamstrings I've ever seen, he can't get close to bending over and touching his toes. "

[halcon]

Hi Erik,

I've read the entire thread looking for answers, but I don't think my concern has been addressed before. I couldn't find any references in the book in regards to the stance width. I read Hogan's book, and I've been using his suggestion to have an increasingly wider stance for longer clubs (BH also suggests that the alignment of the feet should change from open for wedges, to closed for the driver). AM & MB only have a reference that the stance should be wider with the longer clubs to flatten the swing.

I am having inconsistent results with my driver (as many others), but I think that this problem is related with my footwork / hips sliding, so it is just a matter of keep practicing and adjust my timing to have a consistent ball flight. My big problem is that I can not hit my shorts irons, I am hitting them fat, pushes, blades, sh*nks, ... Also, the very few I hit well, aren't drawing as the rest of my clubs. Is this related to my stance? Do I have a very narrow stance for my short irons? Normally, my stance will go from a little wider than my shoulders with my driver, to maybe hips width, or a little narrower, with my wedges.

Thanks

[Zeph]

I am having inconsistent results with my driver (as many others), but I think that this problem is related with my footwork / hips sliding, so it is just a matter of keep practicing and adjust my timing to have a consistent ball flight. My big problem is that I can not hit my shorts irons, I am hitting them fat, pushes, blades, sh*nks, ... Also, the very few I hit well, aren't drawing as the rest of my clubs. Is this related to my stance? Do I have a very narrow stance for my short irons? Normally, my stance will go from a little wider than my shoulders with my driver, to maybe hips width, or a little narrower, with my wedges.

I'm not Erik, but I'll express my thoughts regardless.

IIRC, Mike and Andy classifies stance width in the same category as ball position, posture and grip; it is an individual component that they don't prescribe to be definite. It is more a recommendation within defined frames. When it comes to the stance, I think they recommend shoulder width and perhaps bit wider for longer clubs if you feel that works best. It is pretty standard stuff. I'd say don't be too narrow and don't be too wide and you'll be fine. When it comes to your problems, I doubt the stance width is an issue. Could be if you are too narrow, but without seeing your swing, I can't tell if it is probable. What I would say though is that the stance is unlikely the only problem. You mention adjusting your timing, but when done properly, you should not have to time anything. Except if you are talking about sequencing. All in all, it is pretty hard to give you any advice without seeing your swing. If I were to make an uneducated guess, I'd say you are not sliding enough forward and/or flipping. I read the Trackman article again, and it confirmed that the higher loft of a club, the less sidespin you will get. This means that you have to aim more to the right (when hitting a draw), when aiming at a target with a low lofted club, than you have to with a high lofted club. A 4 iron you may have to aim 10 yards right, while a PW only 5 yards. What I can't say is the reason for this. With a SP 6º in-out and CFA 3º in out, how many % towards the CFA would the ball start with a 4 iron vs a PW? Is it the initial direction that changes, or the amount of sidespin, since the higher lofted club will impart more backspin than a low lofted one? The point is that you should not expect the same amount of draw in a short iron as long one.

[halcon]

I'm not Erik, but I'll express my thoughts regardless.

hi Zeph,

I can understand that the stance is individual, however, do you have the same stance width for every iron? do you move only the ball position? In regards to the ball flight, my short irons are straight-pushes, push-fades or straight-pulls, never push-draws as with the longer clubs. By timing I mean synchronization of movements; sometimes I hit push-fades because I move my hips too fast forward. Sequencing may be a better description, as you put it.