The Stack and Tilt Golf Swing

[SloverUT]

I am slowly but surely learning different techniques to the stack and tilt golf swing. I am stil working on the backswing and one area in particular I am struggling with is my left knee (Right handed). I know I am supposed to push my left knee towards the ball and push my weight forward but I am consistently failing at this. On my backswing my left knee always bends back towards my right. I am looking for drills or input on how others accomplished this seemingly simple task..

[iacas]

Originally Posted by ChrisGSZ

The way forward in golf coaching is probably down a different route - one based on mechanical effectiveness (of course), but 'translated' into simple, thoughts and images

I agree. Now, you've been restricted from this thread for not only being slightly spammy but for not following the rules in the first post.

[cipher]

I have a serious question about a piece of the swing.  I am struggling with the keeping the hips and shoulders down at the initiation of the downswing.  I tend to raise them up to start the downswing.  I am having a hard time with getting the feeling of this.  If I hold on to the flex in my left leg at the start of the downswing I feel like I am going to hit 6" behind the ball.  Any tips/drills for getting the feeling of this?  My last two lessons have been pretty much about this, but just can't get the sense for it.

[mvmac]

Originally Posted by cipher

I have a serious question about a piece of the swing.  I am struggling with the keeping the hips and shoulders down at the initiation of the downswing.  I tend to raise them up to start the downswing.  I am having a hard time with getting the feeling of this.  If I hold on to the flex in my left leg at the start of the downswing I feel like I am going to hit 6" behind the ball.  Any tips/drills for getting the feeling of this?  My last two lessons have been pretty much about this, but just can't get the sense for it.

Feel the pressure more towards the toes of your left foot on the downswing, and use that to push off of which helps shallow the angle of attack.  And make sure the arms are coming down fast enough.  Were these lessons Evolvr lessons?

[cipher]

Quote:

Were these lessons Evolvr lessons?

Yeah James is doing a great job. Everything has been going very well, I am just having a hard time with this one. He has emailed me about it as well. I really struggle the feeling on this one.

edit: Thanks for the tip as well.  I will try that.

[JetFan1983]

Liam's recent post on ball position got me thinking a bit on this topic tonight:

Originally Posted by MonarchGolf2010

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deryck Griffith

Liam, I just wanted to send a quick line to say that I was very impressed with your episode with Michael Breed.  It was refreshing to see all that you talked about as it pertains to weight position, etc etc.

There are a lot of opinions on Michael Breed and his tips on the Golf Fix.  I think Michael is a great guy but some of his tips can fall into the category of the "old way" .. i.e. incorrect ball flight laws, etc.

How was Michael in person and after you two filmed that episode, what did he have to say about your weight forward approach to the swing (if you two talked about it?)

Btw - you were absolutely striping those fairway woods!

Well thank you very much for your kind words.

Michael is a really good guy and is actually very open to new ideas. Actually on his most recent golf fix he talked about ball position and made a comment that I have to believe I had some influence on. He made the comment that if you're weight is more forward, as should your ball position.

So, he certainly had nothing derogatory to say. He seemed impressed with my action and he had kind words.

Thanks for the question!

Ball Position in the S&T; Pattern

With a swing that will have the weight typically more forward most of the time, I'm wondering if its nearly impossible to play the ball back in my stance. I'd love to hear people's thoughts on this.

Generally, whenever I play the ball back, I either block it well right or I hit a hook. If I time my swing right, I'll hit a huge-push draw. None of these results are really what I'm looking for.

Even with wedges, I'm finding that playing the ball more forward in my stance seems to promote some good things: my tendency to flip is reduced with a more forward ball position, and my hip slide seems to stall less as well.

So what's the theory here? In the stack and tilt pattern, is it common for the rest of you guys to play the ball well forward? And then just varying stance width?

Does anyone play the ball behind the middle of your stance with any club, and if so, what mechanically is working for you in order to do this? Less hip slide? My swing is far too down and out if I move the ball back in my stance. Is this normal for a S&T; swing or am I simply swinging too much from the inside?

I'd post a swing on my swing thread, but I was wondering what the answer to these questions were more from a theoretically stand point. I'm aware of what the book says on this -- that wedges are typically played just ahead of middle -- but in my swing even that seems to be too far back.

[sk golf]

Originally Posted by cipher

I have a serious question about a piece of the swing.  I am struggling with the keeping the hips and shoulders down at the initiation of the downswing.  I tend to raise them up to start the downswing.  I am having a hard time with getting the feeling of this.  If I hold on to the flex in my left leg at the start of the downswing I feel like I am going to hit 6" behind the ball.  Any tips/drills for getting the feeling of this?  My last two lessons have been pretty much about this, but just can't get the sense for it.

This is a tough one.  In your practice swings break it up into 2 parts.

1.  Pause for a couple seconds at A6 with more left knee flex, left shoulder down etc...

2.  Poor on the extension pieces to the finish

[sk golf]

[cipher]

Quote:

This is a tough one. In your practice swings break it up into 2 parts.

1. Pause for a couple seconds at A6 with more left knee flex, left shoulder down etc...

2. Poor on the extension pieces to the finish

Video is not working.

Quote:

So what's the theory here? In the stack and tilt pattern, is it common for the rest of you guys to play the ball well forward? And then just varying stance width?

Maybe one of the guys here can let us know but I think it is a little forward of center.  They talked about this moving the ball forward a bit in my stance as I had it centered.

[mvmac]

Originally Posted by JetFan1983

Liam's recent post on ball position got me thinking a bit on this topic tonight:

Ball Position in the S&T; Pattern

With a swing that will have the weight typically more forward most of the time, I'm wondering if its nearly impossible to play the ball back in my stance. I'd love to hear people's thoughts on this.

Generally, whenever I play the ball back, I either block it well right or I hit a hook. If I time my swing right, I'll hit a huge-push draw. None of these results are really what I'm looking for.

Even with wedges, I'm finding that playing the ball more forward in my stance seems to promote some good things: my tendency to flip is reduced with a more forward ball position, and my hip slide seems to stall less as well.

So what's the theory here? In the stack and tilt pattern, is it common for the rest of you guys to play the ball well forward? And then just varying stance width?

Does anyone play the ball behind the middle of your stance with any club, and if so, what mechanically is working for you in order to do this? Less hip slide? My swing is far too down and out if I move the ball back in my stance. Is this normal for a S&T; swing or am I simply swinging too much from the inside?

I'd post a swing on my swing thread, but I was wondering what the answer to these questions were more from a theoretically stand point. I'm aware of what the book says on this -- that wedges are typically played just ahead of middle -- but in my swing even that seems to be too far back.

For a high push draw pattern is going to be further back than Liam's pattern.  Like one or two balls.  Remember too that Liam hits fades so there are adjustments made at address and a different feel on the downswing.  Liam doesn't worry about hip slide or holding wedges, pivot does that for him.

If a player does tend to tip the upper center back and swing too much out, ball forward helps with that.  Keeps the upper center more stable and have the swing direction be less to the right.  So yes if you feel you tend to swing too far out, maybe move the ball up a couple balls and keep the right shoulder moving.

[JetFan1983]

Thanks, Mike. Very helpful response as always.

This video by Mario cleared some things up for me as well.

My sternum location tends to be more forward at address, so perhaps this is why I've had problems playing the ball in the middle of my stance with wedges. If there's one thing I over-do (and there are a few of those) it's getting into a stacked position at A1 with both my centers.

[cipher]

Mike, The only way that I am getting that feeling of the hips and shoulders down, that you and James have been talking to me about, is to try and hold off the move of my left knee kicking in on my back swing.  I noticed if my left knee kicks in too much I immediately want to straighten it, raising my hips and shoulders.  If I try to hold it off I am able to keep the set up flex and increase it a bit at the start of the downswing, giving me the sense you guys are talking about. Is this OK to have a more stationary left leg and knee in the back swing with the S&T; method?

Quote:

This is a tough one. In your practice swings break it up into 2 parts.

1. Pause for a couple seconds at A6 with more left knee flex, left shoulder down etc...

2. Poor on the extension pieces to the finish

Thanks, video is working now.  That visual helps a lot.

Quote:

Thanks, Mike. Very helpful response as always.

This video by Mario cleared some things up for me as well.

Great video on ball position as well, thanks for sharing.

[sk golf]

Originally Posted by cipher

Mike, The only way that I am getting that feeling of the hips and shoulders down, that you and James have been talking to me about, is to try and hold off the move of my left knee kicking in on my back swing.  I noticed if my left knee kicks in too much I immediately want to straighten it, raising my hips and shoulders.  If I try to hold it off I am able to keep the set up flex and increase it a bit at the start of the downswing, giving me the sense you guys are talking about. Is this OK to have a more stationary left leg and knee in the back swing with the S&T; method?

Thanks, video is working now.  That visual helps a lot.

Great video on ball position as well, thanks for sharing.

Instead of feeling like your holding off feel like your adding pressure.  Feel like you are applying more and more pressure into you left foot (I am assuming you are RH) from A4 to A6.  In your rehearsals feel like your hips are slanted left, left should down, and from there the arms drop faster.  Sounds like you have been working on this for awhile, so I would add in the feeling from A4 to A6 that your very narrow.  I'll post a picture below of what I mean.

Finally, this is pretty tough, so don't get too discouraged and stick with it.

[wadesworld]

I'm confused by that video of Mario's on ball position.

How can the length of the club determine ball position?  With a proper setup, the low point of the swing is the sternum notch.  Anatomically, it has to be.  A longer club simply causes a wider arc.  The only reason the driver is played forward is not because of the length, but because the ball is sitting on a tee and we want to catch it on the upswing.  With a fairway wood, the ball will be slightly forward of an iron shot, but that's simply because the clubhead is wider than a skinny iron.

Now, certainly if you're trying to produce a different shot shape or ball flight, you might move the ball forward or back to catch the ball on a different part of the arc.  However, that's done intentionally and not because of any club difference and it certainly doesn't mean the anatomical low point of your swing has changed.

Is it the tilt of the stack and tilt method which is causing the low point of the swing to be the left pec or under the left arm as Mario is describing? If so, that's an intentional manipulation of the shoulder plane forcing the low point to be somewhere other than where anatomy dictates.  Doesn't mean it's wrong if that's what the method calls for, but it didn't change anatomy.

What am I missing?

[SloverUT]

Don't feel bad cipher.  I am struggling with my left knee kicking in as well.  I can't seem to get used to it moving forward toward the ball instead of back towards my right knee.  And when I do manage to move my knee forward I hit the ground what feels like 2 feet behind the ball, lol.

[cipher]

Originally Posted by SloverUT

Don't feel bad cipher.  I am struggling with my left knee kicking in as well.  I can't seem to get used to it moving forward toward the ball instead of back towards my right knee.  And when I do manage to move my knee forward I hit the ground what feels like 2 feet behind the ball, lol.

Thanks man! ;)

Originally Posted by sk golf

Instead of feeling like your holding off feel like your adding pressure.  Feel like you are applying more and more pressure into you left foot (I am assuming you are RH) from A4 to A6.  In your rehearsals feel like your hips are slanted left, left should down, and from there the arms drop faster.  Sounds like you have been working on this for awhile, so I would add in the feeling from A4 to A6 that your very narrow.  I'll post a picture below of what I mean.

Finally, this is pretty tough, so don't get too discouraged and stick with it.

I am actually just on my fourth evolvr lesson, so it is all coming kind of fast.  I started them just about a month ago, but have been practicing a lot.  That picture is great, I took a snapshot with my phone to have the reference when practicing.  I will work on the "pressure" feeling as you and Mike are talking about.  Thanks for the help!

[iacas]

Originally Posted by wadesworld

With a proper setup, the low point of the swing is the sternum notch.  Anatomically, it has to be.

No it doesn't. The right arm isn't straight at impact. The left shoulder is moving up. The shaft is not inline with the left arm. The wrists haven't uncocked fully. And so on. Many pieces contribute to a low point that's a good bit farther forward (under the lead armpit, roughly) in a proper golf swing.

Originally Posted by wadesworld

Is it the tilt of the stack and tilt method which is causing the low point of the swing to be the left pec or under the left arm as Mario is describing? If so, that's an intentional manipulation of the shoulder plane forcing the low point to be somewhere other than where anatomy dictates. Doesn't mean it's wrong if that's what the method calls for, but it didn't change anatomy.

What am I missing?

You're missing that impact is not setup. That "anatomically" you're wrong about where low point is in a good golf swing.

Long irons work best when they're hit with a very shallow negative AoA. One of the easiest ways to shallow the AoA is to move the ball closer to the low point - or farther forward. With a wedge, the center of our stance is fine because we can deliver a larger negative AoA.

This is true of EVERY good swing pattern, not just S&T.;

[mvmac]

Originally Posted by wadesworld

Is it the tilt of the stack and tilt method which is causing the low point of the swing to be the left pec or under the left arm as Mario is describing? If so, that's an intentional manipulation of the shoulder plane forcing the low point to be somewhere other than where anatomy dictates.  Doesn't mean it's wrong if that's what the method calls for, but it didn't change anatomy.

What am I missing?

The "tilt" is just pointing out the left tilt, lateral flexion (oblique crunch) that EVERY good players has.  Left shoulder is higher than the right at address but at the top of the back swing left shoulder is lower.  The left tilt is towards the ball NOT towards the target.

Originally Posted by cipher

Mike, The only way that I am getting that feeling of the hips and shoulders down, that you and James have been talking to me about, is to try and hold off the move of my left knee kicking in on my back swing.  I noticed if my left knee kicks in too much I immediately want to straighten it, raising my hips and shoulders.  If I try to hold it off I am able to keep the set up flex and increase it a bit at the start of the downswing, giving me the sense you guys are talking about. Is this OK to have a more stationary left leg and knee in the back swing with the S&T; method?

Yes like Stephan said, focus more on the pressure rather than the flex of your left knee.  Like you're squashing a bug under your left foot.

Originally Posted by cipher

If I try to hold it off I am able to keep the set up flex and increase it a bit at the start of the downswing, giving me the sense you guys are talking about. Is this OK to have a more stationary left leg and knee in the back swing with the S&T; method?

By stationary do you mean not moving back at all?  Having the left knee be stationary is not something I would recommend per a centered pivot.  Might be the feel for some people but in reality the left knee will move back a little.  Keeps the hips turning and the head from going down and forward.