The Stack and Tilt Golf Swing

[ChrisGSZ]

CIPHER - thanks for these comments - they are very perceptive... . As you say, there is no simple 'cure-all' - everyone is different... . It's just that we have so much evidence (more than a century) that humans and all animals learn best when they focus 'outside the body' - externally - compared to focusing internally on technique - it's a puzzle why we do this so much in golf....

I can certainly reference the research - go to http://thegolfswingzone.com , where there's a brief scientific summary and some downloadable sections. You can also 'Look Inside' the book on Amazon.

On this forum, I'm just hoping to contribute some sensible science to debates where science can make a difference.

[cipher]

Since you are actually selling a book, maybe you should keep the pitch on the thousand swings thread, as it is a bit off topic here.  No offense, hope you do well with it.

[slodsm]

Well, I've read all 88 pages, bought the book, and will probably buy the DVD's. I've taken lessons, know a traditional swing by heart but I brain dump it regularly and start hitting fat shots, swinging off my back foot, etc. Went from a 180yd par 3 GIR yesterday as well as several other GIR's and my personal best shot to the green that stuck (distance wise) to the green and only 2 fat shots in a round to no GIR today and stopped keeping score at 5 after 2 triples and 3 doubles all directly related to poor ball striking. I'm athletic so with practice I should be able to absorb this I hope. A lot less movement and taking practice swings with it in the house I find it much easier to keep my head where it needs to be. My miss is always a fade to a full blown slice and all of the OOB and hazards that I get into are on the right. It's be nice to no longer stress that shot anymore.

Fingers crossed, I'll hit about 200 range balls tomorrow at 50% or so trying to get my timing down.

[SloverUT]

I am slowly but surely learning different techniques to the stack and tilt golf swing. I am stil working on the backswing and one area in particular I am struggling with is my left knee (Right handed). I know I am supposed to push my left knee towards the ball and push my weight forward but I am consistently failing at this. On my backswing my left knee always bends back towards my right. I am looking for drills or input on how others accomplished this seemingly simple task..

[iacas]

Originally Posted by ChrisGSZ

The way forward in golf coaching is probably down a different route - one based on mechanical effectiveness (of course), but 'translated' into simple, thoughts and images

I agree. Now, you've been restricted from this thread for not only being slightly spammy but for not following the rules in the first post.

[cipher]

I have a serious question about a piece of the swing.  I am struggling with the keeping the hips and shoulders down at the initiation of the downswing.  I tend to raise them up to start the downswing.  I am having a hard time with getting the feeling of this.  If I hold on to the flex in my left leg at the start of the downswing I feel like I am going to hit 6" behind the ball.  Any tips/drills for getting the feeling of this?  My last two lessons have been pretty much about this, but just can't get the sense for it.

[mvmac]

Originally Posted by cipher

I have a serious question about a piece of the swing.  I am struggling with the keeping the hips and shoulders down at the initiation of the downswing.  I tend to raise them up to start the downswing.  I am having a hard time with getting the feeling of this.  If I hold on to the flex in my left leg at the start of the downswing I feel like I am going to hit 6" behind the ball.  Any tips/drills for getting the feeling of this?  My last two lessons have been pretty much about this, but just can't get the sense for it.

Feel the pressure more towards the toes of your left foot on the downswing, and use that to push off of which helps shallow the angle of attack.  And make sure the arms are coming down fast enough.  Were these lessons Evolvr lessons?

[cipher]

Quote:

Were these lessons Evolvr lessons?

Yeah James is doing a great job. Everything has been going very well, I am just having a hard time with this one. He has emailed me about it as well. I really struggle the feeling on this one.

edit: Thanks for the tip as well.  I will try that.

[JetFan1983]

Liam's recent post on ball position got me thinking a bit on this topic tonight:

Originally Posted by MonarchGolf2010

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deryck Griffith

Liam, I just wanted to send a quick line to say that I was very impressed with your episode with Michael Breed.  It was refreshing to see all that you talked about as it pertains to weight position, etc etc.

There are a lot of opinions on Michael Breed and his tips on the Golf Fix.  I think Michael is a great guy but some of his tips can fall into the category of the "old way" .. i.e. incorrect ball flight laws, etc.

How was Michael in person and after you two filmed that episode, what did he have to say about your weight forward approach to the swing (if you two talked about it?)

Btw - you were absolutely striping those fairway woods!

Well thank you very much for your kind words.

Michael is a really good guy and is actually very open to new ideas. Actually on his most recent golf fix he talked about ball position and made a comment that I have to believe I had some influence on. He made the comment that if you're weight is more forward, as should your ball position.

So, he certainly had nothing derogatory to say. He seemed impressed with my action and he had kind words.

Thanks for the question!

Ball Position in the S&T Pattern

With a swing that will have the weight typically more forward most of the time, I'm wondering if its nearly impossible to play the ball back in my stance. I'd love to hear people's thoughts on this.

Generally, whenever I play the ball back, I either block it well right or I hit a hook. If I time my swing right, I'll hit a huge-push draw. None of these results are really what I'm looking for.

Even with wedges, I'm finding that playing the ball more forward in my stance seems to promote some good things: my tendency to flip is reduced with a more forward ball position, and my hip slide seems to stall less as well.

So what's the theory here? In the stack and tilt pattern, is it common for the rest of you guys to play the ball well forward? And then just varying stance width?

Does anyone play the ball behind the middle of your stance with any club, and if so, what mechanically is working for you in order to do this? Less hip slide? My swing is far too down and out if I move the ball back in my stance. Is this normal for a S&T swing or am I simply swinging too much from the inside?

I'd post a swing on my swing thread, but I was wondering what the answer to these questions were more from a theoretically stand point. I'm aware of what the book says on this -- that wedges are typically played just ahead of middle -- but in my swing even that seems to be too far back.

[sk golf]

Originally Posted by cipher

I have a serious question about a piece of the swing.  I am struggling with the keeping the hips and shoulders down at the initiation of the downswing.  I tend to raise them up to start the downswing.  I am having a hard time with getting the feeling of this.  If I hold on to the flex in my left leg at the start of the downswing I feel like I am going to hit 6" behind the ball.  Any tips/drills for getting the feeling of this?  My last two lessons have been pretty much about this, but just can't get the sense for it.

This is a tough one.  In your practice swings break it up into 2 parts.

1.  Pause for a couple seconds at A6 with more left knee flex, left shoulder down etc...

2.  Poor on the extension pieces to the finish

[sk golf]

[cipher]

Quote:

This is a tough one. In your practice swings break it up into 2 parts.

1. Pause for a couple seconds at A6 with more left knee flex, left shoulder down etc...

2. Poor on the extension pieces to the finish

Video is not working.

Quote:

So what's the theory here? In the stack and tilt pattern, is it common for the rest of you guys to play the ball well forward? And then just varying stance width?

Maybe one of the guys here can let us know but I think it is a little forward of center.  They talked about this moving the ball forward a bit in my stance as I had it centered.

[mvmac]

Originally Posted by JetFan1983

Liam's recent post on ball position got me thinking a bit on this topic tonight:

Ball Position in the S&T Pattern

With a swing that will have the weight typically more forward most of the time, I'm wondering if its nearly impossible to play the ball back in my stance. I'd love to hear people's thoughts on this.

Generally, whenever I play the ball back, I either block it well right or I hit a hook. If I time my swing right, I'll hit a huge-push draw. None of these results are really what I'm looking for.

Even with wedges, I'm finding that playing the ball more forward in my stance seems to promote some good things: my tendency to flip is reduced with a more forward ball position, and my hip slide seems to stall less as well.

So what's the theory here? In the stack and tilt pattern, is it common for the rest of you guys to play the ball well forward? And then just varying stance width?

Does anyone play the ball behind the middle of your stance with any club, and if so, what mechanically is working for you in order to do this? Less hip slide? My swing is far too down and out if I move the ball back in my stance. Is this normal for a S&T swing or am I simply swinging too much from the inside?

I'd post a swing on my swing thread, but I was wondering what the answer to these questions were more from a theoretically stand point. I'm aware of what the book says on this -- that wedges are typically played just ahead of middle -- but in my swing even that seems to be too far back.

For a high push draw pattern is going to be further back than Liam's pattern.  Like one or two balls.  Remember too that Liam hits fades so there are adjustments made at address and a different feel on the downswing.  Liam doesn't worry about hip slide or holding wedges, pivot does that for him.

If a player does tend to tip the upper center back and swing too much out, ball forward helps with that.  Keeps the upper center more stable and have the swing direction be less to the right.  So yes if you feel you tend to swing too far out, maybe move the ball up a couple balls and keep the right shoulder moving.

[JetFan1983]

Thanks, Mike. Very helpful response as always.

This video by Mario cleared some things up for me as well.

My sternum location tends to be more forward at address, so perhaps this is why I've had problems playing the ball in the middle of my stance with wedges. If there's one thing I over-do (and there are a few of those) it's getting into a stacked position at A1 with both my centers.

[cipher]

Mike, The only way that I am getting that feeling of the hips and shoulders down, that you and James have been talking to me about, is to try and hold off the move of my left knee kicking in on my back swing.  I noticed if my left knee kicks in too much I immediately want to straighten it, raising my hips and shoulders.  If I try to hold it off I am able to keep the set up flex and increase it a bit at the start of the downswing, giving me the sense you guys are talking about. Is this OK to have a more stationary left leg and knee in the back swing with the S&T method?

Quote:

This is a tough one. In your practice swings break it up into 2 parts.

1. Pause for a couple seconds at A6 with more left knee flex, left shoulder down etc...

2. Poor on the extension pieces to the finish

Thanks, video is working now.  That visual helps a lot.

Quote:

Thanks, Mike. Very helpful response as always.

This video by Mario cleared some things up for me as well.

Great video on ball position as well, thanks for sharing.

[sk golf]

Originally Posted by cipher

Mike, The only way that I am getting that feeling of the hips and shoulders down, that you and James have been talking to me about, is to try and hold off the move of my left knee kicking in on my back swing.  I noticed if my left knee kicks in too much I immediately want to straighten it, raising my hips and shoulders.  If I try to hold it off I am able to keep the set up flex and increase it a bit at the start of the downswing, giving me the sense you guys are talking about. Is this OK to have a more stationary left leg and knee in the back swing with the S&T; method?

Thanks, video is working now.  That visual helps a lot.

Great video on ball position as well, thanks for sharing.

Instead of feeling like your holding off feel like your adding pressure.  Feel like you are applying more and more pressure into you left foot (I am assuming you are RH) from A4 to A6.  In your rehearsals feel like your hips are slanted left, left should down, and from there the arms drop faster.  Sounds like you have been working on this for awhile, so I would add in the feeling from A4 to A6 that your very narrow.  I'll post a picture below of what I mean.

Finally, this is pretty tough, so don't get too discouraged and stick with it.

[wadesworld]

I'm confused by that video of Mario's on ball position.

How can the length of the club determine ball position?  With a proper setup, the low point of the swing is the sternum notch.  Anatomically, it has to be.  A longer club simply causes a wider arc.  The only reason the driver is played forward is not because of the length, but because the ball is sitting on a tee and we want to catch it on the upswing.  With a fairway wood, the ball will be slightly forward of an iron shot, but that's simply because the clubhead is wider than a skinny iron.

Now, certainly if you're trying to produce a different shot shape or ball flight, you might move the ball forward or back to catch the ball on a different part of the arc.  However, that's done intentionally and not because of any club difference and it certainly doesn't mean the anatomical low point of your swing has changed.

Is it the tilt of the stack and tilt method which is causing the low point of the swing to be the left pec or under the left arm as Mario is describing? If so, that's an intentional manipulation of the shoulder plane forcing the low point to be somewhere other than where anatomy dictates.  Doesn't mean it's wrong if that's what the method calls for, but it didn't change anatomy.

What am I missing?

[SloverUT]

Don't feel bad cipher.  I am struggling with my left knee kicking in as well.  I can't seem to get used to it moving forward toward the ball instead of back towards my right knee.  And when I do manage to move my knee forward I hit the ground what feels like 2 feet behind the ball, lol.